HT for railroad rail

P

P. Nelson

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Feb 7, 2005
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Does anyone know a good way to heat treat a railroad rail. I have a means of heating it up to about 1300 degrees easily, but don't know how to quench. I really can't do an oil quench, because it would be inside a state building, and I don't think that thay would appreciate an oil fire.

Thanks
 
I believe that I saw somewhere that one of the methods used by anvil makers was to dump water on them and/or hose them off with large volumes of water to quench them.

I imagine a fire hose would work quite well.
 
Silly question time but why do you need to HT the rail ? Is it not tempered already ? Also where did you happen to find a small piece ? I wouldnt mind an old chunk myself.
Todd
 
By the way, I also read of a method to treat rail anvils whereby the anvil is propped up on an angle, and starting with the lower end, heated to hardening temps. A hose is then trained on the lower end so that the water runs downward, and as the flame is moved up the anvil heating it, the hose is moved along behind it quenching the heated section as you go. This method requires at least two people to accomplish, but it sounds easier than dealing with the entire rail all at once.

As for why it would need hardening ...I guess the ends where it is cut with a torch would be softer than the rest of the rail ...and also the horn where it was ground down if it was heated too much in the grinding process.
 
I was talking to Paul Bos on that subject many years ago, and he suggested a rosebud tip, getting it to about 14-1500 degrees F, and dumping it(however you can) in a tank or pail if a brine solution that you mix up beforehand, using whatever sized container you need, water and rock salt.
You would then have to temper it in your oven at 400 degrees F, or so.

They do dent rather easily, but I just figured it wasn't worth the trouble for the little I use one of those makeshift anvils.
 
From "The Complete Bladesmith" by Jim Hrisoulas

"Build a large coal fire....place the anvil topside down into the fire and heap the coals over it until the top is buried in the bank of coals......will take a considerable length of time to get this amount of steel up to temperature. When the piece is at the poper temperature (cherry red)...remove the anvil and quench it in a metal trash can filled with salt water. Let the anvil down as far as you possibly can without touching the bottom of the trash can. When the piece is cooled, polish the face and place the anvil back into the fire right side up. Draw a temper on the anvil face to a very light straw color and quench. Do not worry about the horn as it will be annealled to a soft blue temper....When the horn is annealed, quench the entire anvil again to prevent the face from becoming softened. Then polish the surfaces...and you are ready to start to work."


I'm planning to do something very similar this week or next.


As suggested, I'm sure you could bypass the coal fire by using a hot enough tip to heat the face.
 
P. Nelson said:
I have a means of heating it up to about 1300 degrees easily, but don't know how to quench. Thanks
Click to expand...

no way at 1300
yes on the Brine (salt and water.)
no on the quench while heating it..you can't heat it that fast to start with..
and it should have some soak time..
I've heard the trash can deal to.. you need a lot of brine to help cool it fast..


Mike that rose bud would have to be a big sucker to heat it all to temp. at the same time wouldn't it? I'm thinking that is done with more than one at a time
(rosebuds that is)
 
I met an old metal worker who said he had hardened a rail anvil by building a fire from oak pallet scrap wood.He kept burning the wood until he got it hot enough.Two men picked the anvil up with two long lengths of pipe. They dropped it in a horse trough of brine.(I'll bet it looked like old faithful when the steel hit the water).
 
bladsmth said:
I met an old metal worker who said he had hardened a rail anvil by building a fire from oak pallet scrap wood.He kept burning the wood until he got it hot enough.Two men picked the anvil up with two long lengths of pipe. They dropped it in a horse trough of brine.(I'll bet it looked like old faithful when the steel hit the water).
Click to expand...

Oak is a hot wood for sure
I have a sawdust burner
and if I use oak in it it will burn the cast iron grates out of it, inside the fire box it will get up over 1500 deg's..
 
Dans right. You will never heat it up with a rosebud torch. A good hardwood fire with a good bed of coals will get it hot enough after an good hour of "soaking" in the coals. Or even a couple bags of charcoal will do. When quenching it in a water bath, be very carefull of the steam it will put off. Very hot steam!!!! If you have a creek or river nearby, it would be a nice quencer!!! I don't think you will need to temper afterwords cause of the thickness I do not think you will break it after hardening. Have all your mounting holes drilled before, cause you won't be drilling any holes after hardening.
Years ago we cut RR track with just a chisel scribe all the way around and drop the long section on a cross tie and it would snap on the chisel line. But that was a long section where it would bend by the weight of the track.
 
Rebltf: I got the piece of RR track from a local blacksmith that had some, I also checked with a local scrap yard, and they had some as well.

If 1300 wont cut it, what temp then?

I guess the consensus is to quench in brine solution.
One problem, I don't think that I'll be able to get a container big enough to hold that much water, I was just thinking of using a hose and a few buckets to dump on it. Not ideal, I know, but will it work?

I'm not looking for perfect situation, just looking to make due.

Thanks for all the help everyone.
 
HOGCAT said:
A good hardwood fire with a good bed of coals will get it hot enough after an good hour of "soaking" in the coals. Or even a couple bags of charcoal will do.

When quenching it in a water bath, be very carefull of the steam it will put off. Very hot steam!!!! If you have a creek or river nearby, it would be a nice quencer!!!

I don't think you will need to temper afterwords cause of the thickness I do not think you will break it after hardening. .
Click to expand...

with that fire you'll do better adding air to it from underneath. it will get much hotter

Brine will be better also you'll raze the boiling point causing less of a insulting insulating envelop ( quenching faster..)

I would Temper it, you still have the edges that can and will brake if not,, you don't want to be wearing these pieces in you if they do brake off..


you should get up to 1500 min for most any carbon steel
metal trash can ...cheap :) or get a 55 gal drum also cheaper or free ;)
just my 2 cents. :)
 
I've been thinking about this since I have a few sections of track.

Would this work?
Dig a trench in the ground long enough for the track plus a little longer...deep enough so you can shove a section of pipe in the bottom that has holes drilled in it. Use the removed dirt to make a berm around your pit. Fill with charcoal...not briquets...the real stuff. light it up, get a good bed going, add more if needed , set the track in upside down. add more charoal. attach blower (hair dryer) to pipe, turn it on. Bring up to heat, soak, remove track and quench in brine. I've got a 16 gallon drum would that be large enough?
If not then a 55.
Remove track, shut off blower, put track back in trench right side UP. Then cover trench. Not sure with what tho...wet sheet of plywood maybe? Or would you just leave it open and let it cool/temper.
Let me know what ya think.
 
briquettes will work with the air.
that sounds like it will work for you simple forges do not have to be any more than that,, then for the temper..
I'd say at this point do not add air to the mix let it heat slowly with top up. so the time will work for you, it will be like watching a pot boil though :)
just when you temper don't cover it up, you want the heat to soak up to the top to the light straw color then stop the temper with a quench
 
Dan's got it.No fancy blowers.You will need at least 30-50 gallons of brine.You could make a "horse trough" from plywood,caulk the seams,dig a trench and set the trough in the ground ( back fill it to brace the sides),and keep the hose handy to add more water after the anvil is dropped in. Put a layer of rocks in the bottom to keep the hot anvil from burning through the bottom wood.Just set the anvil back on the coals to temper to about 375-400 on the top surface.Quench as soon at it is at the temper temp (if you let it sit ,the heat may soak up to a too high temper.
 
P. Nelson said:
Rebltf:
One problem, I don't think that I'll be able to get a container big enough to hold that much water, I was just thinking of using a hose and a few buckets to dump on it. Not ideal, I know, but will it work?

I'm not looking for perfect situation, just looking to make due.

Thanks for all the help everyone.
Click to expand...

Well I dont know about where you live; but where I live theres alot of crop-dusters. Go to one of them and you can probably score a 55 gal drum for free or under 10$. Ive gotten several in the past :D
 
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