Recommendation? Hydraulic press build

[Farm Hand Knives]

I am looking to build a hydraulic press. The pumpI am looking to use isa 2.5 gpm at 1300 psi 2 horse pump. What would be the best size of H or I beam to use? I want to keep it fairly cheap but strong enough to press Damascus steel and not break.

 

[weo]

Hello F Farm Hand Knives , and welcome to the knifemaking community.

I am looking to build a hydraulic press.

Do you have any experience designing hydraulics? If not, then I'd recommend having someone who does do this for you. When you are talking 10-20+tons of squishing pressure, things can go very wrong without warning and saving a few thousand dollars is not worth your life.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

What Weo said ... plus ...
Build it larger and heavier than you think is enough. In forging presses, you can quickly realize that saving a few dollars can be a waste of money.
Pump output and ram speed are very important.
Dr. James Batson's book , "Build your own hydraulic forging press" is a great recourse. He is a rocket engineer, so he knows a thing or two. He also spent a night in a Holiday Inn .

 

[12345678910]

I agree with Stacy.

The math is super simple grade school volume of a cylinder...

If you don't have the inclination to do the math on your own, spend the thirty dollars and start with that book.

You're doing it backwards.

You start with the tonnage and ram speed you want, assume a pressure, that gives you fluid volume then pump and motor size.

1300 psi is so low, you would have to use absolutely huge cylinders to get tonnage.
Absolutely huge cylinders leads to huge pumps and motors.
It's relatively cheaper to go up in tonnage by gong up in pressure. 2,000psi 2,500 psi or 3,000 psi is "normal"

2HP is so little power it will be useless.

Are you getting those specs from a commercially available hydraulic power pack ?
They are nfg for the purpose. Ram speed for a shop press vs forging press are dramatically different.


At the very least, go look at commercially available blacksmith presses and look at those specs.
then do the math on them to give yourself a starting point.

go back and read all the past press threads in shop talk, and the shoptalk archive.


Keeping a press "fairly cheap" is still $2,000

 

[Ken H>]

Take a look at the Coal Iron presses - they have a range from 12 ton that works pretty darn good, up to 20 ton and more. The 12 ton I have is a 2hp running on 20 amp 120 vac power that can be wired for 220vac easy. The 12 ton operates at 2500 psi and has a ram speed of 3-1/2"/sec. Their 16 ton needs a 5hp motor, but they do have a 16 ton with 2hp but it's slow as molasses on a cold morning at 1.6"/sec.

They have a good selection of parts available for building your own press.

BTW, You didn't fill out your profile, so what part of the world are you in? "IF" you're in USA you might find somebody close where you can go look at an operating press for ideas.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Yes, filling out your profile is a valuable tool for getting good help and answers. All we know right now ids that you are 17 years old.
Tell us a bit about how you plan on building the press and what equipment you have available to do the construction.

BTW, using the Custom Search Engine in the stickys can find a lot of older threads on building presses.

 

[Farm Hand Knives]

Hello F Farm Hand Knives , and welcome to the knifemaking community.


Do you have any experience designing hydraulics? If not, then I'd recommend having someone who does do this for you. When you are talking 10-20+tons of squishing pressure, things can go very wrong without warning and saving a few thousand dollars is not worth your life.

I have worked with plenty of hydraulic machinery so I feel comfortable designing a system. I also have people that understand hydraulics better than I that are helping me.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

How about welding experience and such, as well as the shop equipment to cut, drill;, and lift heavy I-beams and the whole unit?

 

[Natlek]

I have worked with plenty of hydraulic machinery so I feel comfortable designing a system. I also have people that understand hydraulics better than I that are helping me.

Then why you not copy one ? Choose the one you think suits you and make it ?

 

[Farm Hand Knives]

How about welding experience and such, as well as the shop equipment to cut, drill;, and lift heavy I-beams and the whole unit?

I live on a farm so all the metal fab and transport isn’t a huge problem

 

[Farm Hand Knives]

I agree with Stacy.

The math is super simple grade school volume of a cylinder...

If you don't have the inclination to do the math on your own, spend the thirty dollars and start with that book.

You're doing it backwards.

You start with the tonnage and ram speed you want, assume a pressure, that gives you fluid volume then pump and motor size.

1300 psi is so low, you would have to use absolutely huge cylinders to get tonnage.
Absolutely huge cylinders leads to huge pumps and motors.
It's relatively cheaper to go up in tonnage by gong up in pressure. 2,000psi 2,500 psi or 3,000 psi is "normal"

2HP is so little power it will be useless.

Are you getting those specs from a commercially available hydraulic power pack ?
They are nfg for the purpose. Ram speed for a shop press vs forging press are dramatically different.


At the very least, go look at commercially available blacksmith presses and look at those specs.
then do the math on them to give yourself a starting point.

go back and read all the past press threads in shop talk, and the shoptalk archive.


Keeping a press "fairly cheap" is still $2,000

I’m not looking for high tonnage. With the cylinder I’m using it’s around 5 tons. All I’m using it for is to work faster than a hand hammer.

 

[Ken H>]

Are you sure a 5 ton press is enough? The 12 ton Coal Iron is called a "mini-press" because it's considered marginal in tons for use.

As you're on a farm with a decent workshop tools you should have all you need - I grew up on a farm where we did all our own cutting, welding, etc. Welding (and use of tools) comes at an early age on the farm.

What is your budget for building the press - money wise? It might be you've got all the parts in the spare parts pile to build from? Motor, pump, valve, ram, etc?

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

5 tons will be a waste of your time and money.
20 tons is what you want. 10 tons is underpowered for most all forging operations.

A press isn't equivalent to a hammer where a 4 pound hammer hits twice as hard as a 2 pounder.

Look at it this way:
If twenty guys can pickup a 2000 pound car, will 10 guys be able to pick it up slower? (very unlikely), and will 5 guys be able to pick it up very slowly? (NO!).

 

[Farm Hand Knives]

Are you sure a 5 ton press is enough? The 12 ton Coal Iron is called a "mini-press" because it's considered marginal in tons for use.

As you're on a farm with a decent workshop tools you should have all you need - I grew up on a farm where we did all our own cutting, welding, etc. Welding (and use of tools) comes at an early age on the farm.

What is your budget for building the press - money wise? It might be you've got all the parts in the spare parts pile to build from? Motor, pump, valve, ram, etc?

I am not sure if 5 tons will be enough but it will be a heck of a lot faster than a hand hammer. I have seen videos where people have used a 5 ton electric log splitter, so I’m thinking it should work for what I need. As for parts, all I have is a fairly new cylinder for the ram everything else I will have to purchase. Financial I would prefer not the spend more than $3k if possible. Learning how to use tools try 5years old, well for basic safety anyway.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

The 12 ton Coal Iron mini-press is complete and costs $2,950.

12 Ton Mini-Press

Our 12 ton press is built to provide an economical and compact option for those working in small spaces. Mount to a bench top or stand in either down-acting or up-acting configuration. Running on any 110v 20 amp outlet allows you to take the press anywhere in the shop and even outside with an...

coaliron.com

 

[Natlek]

5 tons will be a waste of your time and money.
20 tons is what you want. 10 tons is underpowered for most all forging operations.

A press isn't equivalent to a hammer where a 4 pound hammer hits twice as hard as a 2 pounder.

Look at it this way:
If twenty guys can pickup a 2000 pound car, will 10 guys be able to pick it up slower? (very unlikely), and will 5 guys be able to pick it up very slowly? (NO!).

If one press is 20 ton and have 6 x 4 inch dies and other one press is 10 ton and have 3 x 2 inch dies which one will move more steel ? Of course steel is same size in both case .............

 

[weo]

I am not sure if 5 tons will be enough but it will be a heck of a lot faster than a hand hammer

You're probably right, but I don't think anyone is disputing you on this. I think what the crowd is trying to warn you about is that you'll most likely find rather quickly that while your planned 5-ton unit is able to move the metal a little more than your arm, you'll quickly reach the limit of what 5 tons will move, and wish you had spent the extra on the 12-ton. This falls squarely into the "buy once, cry once" box.
If, on the other hand, your primary reason for doing this project is to practice your fabrication skills, then that's a different discussion.

 

[Gilbert M]

With your budget why don't you pick up the Batson book, study some builds and build something at least 16 tons. For under $2000 my build was 3hp,5 inch cylinder and well over an inch per second I built a C frame and it flexes if I set it over 20 tons ( I beam sides are 1 1/4 inch) your H frame should be easier I would think.

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

If one press is 20 ton and have 6 x 4 inch dies and other one press is 10 ton and have 3 x 2 inch dies which one will move more steel ? Of course steel is same size in both case .............

If the steel is the same size, the factor that matters is how much of it is being squeezed. On the 4" wide dies, 4"of the bar is being pressed. On the 2" wide dies, 2" of the bar is being pressed. Thus the larger die is pressing twice the surface area, which means it is half as efficient. So the 10 ton is applying the same amount of force as the 20 ton. However, a five ton press with 3X2 dies will be much less powerful than a 12 ton with 3X2 dies. The thickness of the billet may latterly stop the press.

If the OP plans on using it to do damascus or for forge welding san-mai, 5 tons ain't likely to do much.

 

[Farm Hand Knives]

With your budget why don't you pick up the Batson book, study some builds and build something at least 16 tons. For under $2000 my build was 3hp,5 inch cylinder and well over an inch per second I built a C frame and it flexes if I set it over 20 tons ( I beam sides are 1 1/4 inch) your H frame should be easier I would think.

What are the dimensions of your I beam? I was planning on using 6” wide flange beams but didn’t know if that was going to be extremely overkill. If possible I would like to use 4 or 5” C channel.