Hydrogen fuel cell vehicle

[mycroftt]

I drove a Chevy Equinox with a hydrogen fuel cell engine today. It carries three tanks of gaseous hydrogen at around 10,000 psi. It was completely silent but had decent torque. The fuel cell produces electricity which can either run the electric motor or charge the batteries and emits only water vapor as exhaust. This prototype had nickel metal halide batteries, which is not likely to be the case for production models. It can run for around 50 miles or so on just the batteries without engaging the fuel cell. The motor, transmission, and differential are all combined in a single unit on the front wheel drive car. It had a display screen that showed graphically what the components of the power system were doing, with little dots moving through the components, representing hydrogen, electrons, water molecules. Pretty cool!

 

[pcnorton]

I drove a Chevy Equinox with a hydrogen fuel cell engine today. It carries three tanks of gaseous hydrogen at around 10,000 psi. It was completely silent but had decent torque. The fuel cell produces electricity which can either run the electric motor or charge the batteries and emits only water vapor as exhaust. This prototype had nickel metal halide batteries, which is not likely to be the case for production models. It can run for around 50 miles or so on just the batteries without engaging the fuel cell. The motor, transmission, and differential are all combined in a single unit on the front wheel drive car. It had a display screen that showed graphically what the components of the power system were doing, with little dots moving through the components, representing hydrogen, electrons, water molecules. Pretty cool!

My dad worked at Pratt and Whitney in the early 60's and they had a fuel cell powered fork lift. He said it left a little trail of water.

It neat stuff, but you need to combine it with a hydrogen delivery infrastructure.

Paul

 

[mycroftt]

My dad worked at Pratt and Whitney in the early 60's and they had a fuel cell powered fork lift. He said it left a little trail of water.

It neat stuff, but you need to combine it with a hydrogen delivery infrastructure.

Paul

Yeah, and there are two types of hydrogen fuel - gaseous and liquid, each of which presents its own challenges. GM is partnering with Shell and there is a Shell station here in DC that carries gaseous hydrogen.

 

[xdshooter]

Yeah, and there are two types of hydrogen fuel - gaseous and liquid, each of which presents its own challenges. GM is partnering with Shell and there is a Shell station here in DC that carries gaseous hydrogen.

Wasn't someone trying to patent a dry hydrogen delivery method? IIRC you would load up a hopper with a granular powder and the car would react it into pure enough hydrogen to feed the fuel cell. Don't think you could get the total "gallons" of hydrogen, but it seemed infinitely safer.

 

[kr1]

I actually did work in '83 while working for United Technologies Research Center on a way to store hydrogen in a fuel cell. the most efficient binder of hydrogen was Titanium as I remember. You would heat it up and introduce hydrogen under pressure and it would bind with the Titanium. In order to release the bound hydrogen you would just heat the fuel cell up. In this manner you didn't have to drive around like the Hindenburg because almost all the hydrogen was bound in the titanium not free. I don't know how much energy would be needed to heat/compress and then re-heat to release the hydrogen.

KR

 

[HomeBru]

The "slickest" technology being worked on IMO is a combination of auto and a solar H2 production module for home. The solar module works during the day busting H2 from water and you just top off every evening. Great for a commuter concept, but the road-tripper needs infrastructure!

When I asked the researchers about total efficiency from water input to water output, they sheepishly mumbled "about 12%". But, at least the energy input is free...

J-

 

[zenheretic]

So if it was cold enough, I wonder if the car would have a little trail of snow puffing out of the exhaust?

 

[Absintheur]

So if it was cold enough, I wonder if the car would have a little trail of snow puffing out of the exhaust?

Actually that is something that I have wondered about....not snow coming out but rather water being exhausted from the vehicle. Think Chicago, the Dan Ryan, winter time, thousands upon thousands of cars dripping water onto the pavement, 10 degree weather...I would think the potential for turning roads into skating rinks very possible. I would think they would almost have to create a collector on the exhaust system that would require dumping, perhaps when you filled you tank with fuel it would automatically dump the collection tank into a drain system at the fueling station.

 

[mwerner]

Right now we extract most of our hydrogen from....Petroleum. This process is not ideal, though it would likely make the petroleum industry happy. Then, in order to use this hydrogen for motor vehicles, a substantial infrastructure for fueling would have to be developed.
The same applies if (as some have suggested) we obtain hydrogen by "cracking" water through electrolysis using some sort of cleanly-produced electricity. We still have the problem of packaging, transporting, and delivering the hydrogen.

Far easier, if you develop clean electricity sources, to use plug-in hybrids. These require no infrastructure that's not already in place, and have the potential of being useful for about 80-85% of transport needs.

I thought it was interesting that at the very same time it was being decided that plug-in hybrids "would not sell" in America, these vehicles were being successfully marketed in Europe, where they even have plug-in facilities in parking lots that you can bill to your home electric bill....
Now, we're told that the GM/Chevy "Volt" is still at least a couple of years away, and production figures being talked about are...."Limited".

 

[jdm61]

While the fuel cell vehicles are a novelty for the time being and current straight up electric cars would only be useful for short commutes, the "plug in" hybids may be a solution for some, but only if we can get way from the idea of using gasoline engines in them. Every test or article you see say that diesel/elecric hybrids see the same kind of basic efficiency increses over gas hybrids as regular diesels see over regular gas powered cars.

 

[mycroftt]

Actually that is something that I have wondered about....not snow coming out but rather water being exhausted from the vehicle. Think Chicago, the Dan Ryan, winter time, thousands upon thousands of cars dripping water onto the pavement, 10 degree weather...I would think the potential for turning roads into skating rinks very possible. I would think they would almost have to create a collector on the exhaust system that would require dumping, perhaps when you filled you tank with fuel it would automatically dump the collection tank into a drain system at the fueling station.

The GM model I drove has some type of in-line dessicant that deals with the problems associated with water and cold weather, but I believe the intent of the subsystem was to ensure the fuel cell remained operational, rather than to keep the water off the road. I know the fuel cell runs for a few minutes after you turn off the key as part of the process. Unfortunately, I had already monopolized the engineer's time so I couldn't get any more detail out of him.

 

[mwerner]

Plug-in hybrids have the potential for being useful for most all passenger transport. As being currently designed, the vehicle runs on battery only for short hauls. When the battery starts to discharge, the internal-combustion engine kicks in. No worries of being stranded with a flat battery.
Some designs use the internal-combustion engine to directly power the vehicle, some merely to recharge the batteries.

Interesting new battery developments should be available just shortly. I read MIT's Technology Today website frequently, and they just had an article up on using nano-materials in the nickle-metal-hydrid batteries to greatly improve both charge rates and battery life.
Using this technology, the battery should last as long as the vehicle, and suffer no degradation from repeated recharges.

 

[zenheretic]

Now, we're told that the GM/Chevy "Volt" is still at least a couple of years away, and production figures being talked about are...."Limited".

Lol, when I bought my last vehicle we, went to Southern (land of hybrids) California to shop for hybrids. None of the American dealers except Saturn had a hybrid within a 90 mile radius. We didn't visit every possible dealer but the Honda folks had plenty to choose from, and the Saturn folks had 3 Vue Hybrids on the lot. They need to have the cars actually be available if they wan't them purchased.

We got the Saturn Vue as a hybrid. Pretty happy so far.

 

[mwerner]

Meanwhile.... Volkswagen is marketing a high-tech diesel-powered Golf model in Europe that gets 65 mpg. Even with the somewhat-higher price of diesel, this is extremely attractive....Better mileage than any of the current "hybrid" designs.

There's a lot of good stuff just coming on the market, and a lot of new technology about to hit the streets. However; how many will be able to afford it?
I'm driving a 2003 Hyundai. Under 1000.00 left to pay. I'm in no position whatever to even think about trading the Korean iron in for something else, and all of these various cutting-edge hybrids and such have hefty price tags attached.
That's if, as Zenheretic says, you can actually find one to buy.

With tight or no credit, lots of unemployment, and an iffy job market, I can't imagine any new technology is going to fly off the shelves. Millions of drivers are going to be in the same boat as myself; keeping the old wheels running as long as possible.

 

[wildmike]

In 1972 the Post Office in Philidelphia Pa. ran all of their mail deliveruy jeeps on hydrogen using azide fuel cells. At that time it was more expensive than gas by about 9%. The whole project was then scrapped. There was an excellent book on doing your own conversion etc. available from Lindsay Publications a number of years ago. The title was "Fuel From Water". The first hybrid vehicle was also designed in 1972. Both of these technologies were held back from further development until now when the manufacturers have developed proprietary technology to make their development more profitable.

 

[fishbulb]

The first hybrid vehicle was also designed in 1972.

Where did you get this date? I can assure you that there were designs for, and working examples of, petroleum/electric hybrid vehicles long before 1972.

Both of these technologies were held back from further development until now when the manufacturers have developed proprietary technology to make their development more profitable.

This also sounds unlikely, what is it based on? Why did it take almost forty years for major manufacturers to develop proprietary technology? What kept other automakers from taking the technology and running with it?

As for hydrogen as a means of powering personal vehicles, it's fundamentally misunderstood by about 99% of the people who mention it. Hydrogen is not in any way an energy source. It's just a means to store and transport energy, and not a very good one, plus that energy has to come from somewhere to begin with.

The real problem is one of energy contained per unit volume; and nothing yet released to the public comes close to petroleum in that regard. Until that changes, electric vehicles and similar non-petroleum-based powertrains are going to serve as little more than a clever trick for automakers looking to grab headlines and a green-hued halo.

 

[pcnorton]

Far easier, if you develop clean electricity sources, to use plug-in hybrids. These require no infrastructure that's not already in place, and have the potential of being useful for about 80-85% of transport needs.

Nuclear.


Paul

 

[jdm61]

Meanwhile.... Volkswagen is marketing a high-tech diesel-powered Golf model in Europe that gets 65 mpg. Even with the somewhat-higher price of diesel, this is extremely attractive....Better mileage than any of the current "hybrid" designs.

There's a lot of good stuff just coming on the market, and a lot of new technology about to hit the streets. However; how many will be able to afford it?
I'm driving a 2003 Hyundai. Under 1000.00 left to pay. I'm in no position whatever to even think about trading the Korean iron in for something else, and all of these various cutting-edge hybrids and such have hefty price tags attached.
That's if, as Zenheretic says, you can actually find one to buy.

With tight or no credit, lots of unemployment, and an iffy job market, I can't imagine any new technology is going to fly off the shelves. Millions of drivers are going to be in the same boat as myself; keeping the old wheels running as long as possible.

The reason that diesel is more expensive in many states is that it is taxed at an even higher rate than gasoline. In Florida, the extra tax is around 50 cents per gallon and this price difference is not attributable to the cost of producing low sulphur fuels because it was that way 5 years ago and has not changed. The new VW Jetta currently gets better mileage on th highway than the Prius and the VW prototype diesel=electric hybird are a quntum leap beyond either the 2 liter deisel or the gas powered hybrids. Remember that once a hybrid runs out of juice, it is just an underpowered gas or desel car and the diesel is always going to deliver more hp and LOTS more torque on the same amount of fuel or, the same hp on less fuel. The big selling point of the Jetta right now, besides the fact that it doens't look quite as much like a Dust Buster as the Prius, is that it's 140hp CDI engine gives you performance that is in most ways, the equal of the 170 hp 2.5 liter 5 cylinder gas engine and arguably close to that of the the 200 hp 2 liter turbo in some areas.

 

[fishbulb]

Remember that once a hybrid runs out of juice, it is just an underpowered gas or desel car and the diesel is always going to deliver more hp and LOTS more torque on the same amount of fuel or, the same hp on less fuel.

?

Hybrids don't really "run out of juice" in anything resembling normal driving; the electric motor is always available to assist as needed for acceleration or hill climbing.

The torque delivery of electric motors is phenomenal, what with the max output available starting at zero RPM and continuing up to top speed. Also, power that comes as a result of regen braking is effectively free and represents a BSFC of 0.

 

[btboone]

It would be a little disconcerting to be sitting near 10,000psi tanks of anything while travelling at highway speeds.

Great point about the water from all the cars having to be collected. Like for my pool or my lawn. It hasn't rained since before Ike here.