I am looking for the best file there is, in terms of HRC and all that jazz.

[Gorog]

My mother might make like Vlad the Impaler and drop me from a great height onto her knives if I even mention the topic of buying a knife again, so, apparently I must make do with my shovels. So...to business...is anyone here a file hunter, with some free time so they can school me on files and answer questions like: what is the hardest, most versatile file out there, and can I acquire it for cheap somewhere? If I sound like a newbie, then good eye, because I did little research before delving into the hand file world, and need a helping hand to acquire the right one. I've heard Nicholson is the the way to go if you want to buy American, but that's all I really know. Any information would be greatly appreciated, thank you all in advance, and see you all later! Peace.

 

[Quiggifur]

Are you looking for a file to file yourself a knife, or smith one out of the file itself? Are you looking to file the edges of a shovel down, to make yourself a battle shovel? If I were to guess, if you're using the file to file down metal, it probably doesn't matter much which file you get. Most probably would do a decent job, I'd imagine. If you're looking to smith the file into something else, I really haven't got a clue about which one would be best. I have seen more than a couple articles about forging from random old files, so (and again this is just a guess) I'm thinking it doesn't matter too much.

I hope someone with more knowledge can reply on the topic; I just don't know that much about it.

 

[Howard Wallace]

I used to use a bench grinder to sharpen shovels when I worked on the fire lines.

I've used files to sharpen both shovels and axes among other tools. I never paid too much attention to the type of file, although I'm sure there's an art to choosing the right one. I'd ask at the hardware store what is the best file for the purpose.

 

[Gorog]

Yeah, I'm just trying to make my shovels capable of taking on some serious roots, Quig, no battle for me, I would undoubtedly stink at it, given that the only serious fight I got in was a SLAPFIGHT, LOfreakingL. You worked on the firelines, Howard? That is so cool. I always wanted to be a volunteer firefighter, but I am so ridiculously weak, that I just...wouldn't cut it, if you know what I mean, and I have no inclination to work for my strength, which is stupid.... Anyway, yeah, so I'm just looking for one that will last really long and--oh yeah, valtitan files. I found a file called Valtitan, which is apparently used for serious metalworking involving exotic metals like platinum and titanium. They get up to 72 hrc case hardened, unless my facts are wrong...is that good enough? I guess I'll find out as soon as I find a ride to Sears, which sells Valtitan files, unless someone comes up with an even better one, quick... hm...thanks everyone for the advice, I'll take it roll out. Peace.
David

 

[Yvsa]

Gorog I doubt you'll ever find a file any harder than 72 HRC so I'd go with the Valtitan!!! As important as a good file can be what can be more important IMNSHO is learning how to care for what files you have ... and to do that the first thing you need is a really good "File Card." And a really good file card is going to have both a very fine wire brush on one side and a nice hair or fiber brush on the other... There should be a ton of info on the Internet on how to properly care for them.
One thing you never ever wanna do with any file is hit it on its edge on something hard as it's apt too snap, I speak from experience about this.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Depending on how dull the shovel blade is (some shovels come fairly sharp, so it's not as stupid a question as one might think), go to the hardware store and get a Flat Bastard, or Flat Second Cut (Mill Bastard or Mill 2nd cut work too, just don't remove material as fast) -- those are terms describing the type of file. If you ask att he store, they will know what you are looking for.

Nicholson files are fine, a shovel head is not very hard, you don't need anything special. Get a 10" or 12", get a file card (used to clean out the file's teeth), and see if they have the wood handles you can put on the file for safety, and to make it easier to use. Finally, remember that files only cut on the forward stroke, don't drag it back or you will quickly dull the file.

 

[Gorog]

Okay, cool. Thanks Yvsa and Punishment, I'll roll with that. I already have a mill 2nd cut Nicholson and some needle files by General, so I might be all set, though the Valtitan files are calling my name *cue ghostly voice calling 'Daaaavidddd, DAAAVIDDDDD, BUYYYYY MEEEEEEEEEEE!' end cue* so yeah, if they are not mad expensive, I might pick one up and see what she can do for my shovels. Thanks, again, and see you all later. Peace. EDIT: I've heard that Valtitan files are virtually immune to clogging, so I might not need a file card, Yvsa. I might pick one up though, just in case.
David

 

[Steely_Gunz]

On a side note, I have had wonderful success keeping my shovels sharp with one of those honing pucks. You can pick them up at the hardware store (usually around the files or maybe by the shovel section). It's just a hockey puck shaped medium/course sharpening stone that does a great job of taking the dings out of the shovel edge.

One of my favorite pieces of camping gear (and to be brutally honest, more useful than my khuk in general) is my German army surplus folding spade. I keep it sharper than it needs to be, but I use it to dig fire pits, split wood in a pinch, rake coals around, and of course kill the fire at the end of trip. On top of that, it would be menacing if needed as a hand-to-hand weapon. Lots and lots of soldiers on both sides were cleaved to death in the trench battles of WWI.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Dang, glad I'm not the only one that carries an e-tool camping. Everyone always looks at me like I'm nuts for carrying the weight, but they are, without a doubt, one of the most useful tools there is.

An axe puck is nice to have (I use one as well), but for honing and maintaining an edge. For putting the edge on initially, he really does want to use a file.

 

[Gorog]

Cool, I love entrenching tools, though I got to say, I'm disappointed somewhat in cold steel because, like one reviewer put it, my shovels are like 'rust piles on a stick'. And I practically BABY them, too, scrape the rust off, coat them in oil, all that jazz. I've heard incredible, hard to believe claims about the Fiskars digging shovel, or otherwise known as THIS:

So I might try it out. The Fiskars spade my Mother acquired broke miserably at the handle, so the handle, while functional, can come off with any amount of pulling applied. And yet, to throw this files thread off topic even more, I love the One Shot Shovel from TrailBlazer, too, it and its funky wings, PICTURE HERE,

I still think it would be funny if I got a Chinese Military shovel, and scared away my *oh so many* enemies by making julienne fries out of some 'taters with the knife edge.... I just think it would be really cool, yet I am dubious at the Chinese quality standards, as they pump out all sorts of stuff that is not up to par (I forgive them, most of them are sweatshop made...and to think some people say THEIR childhood was difficult). Anyway, if my mom lets me I might get both the Fiskars shovel and the Valtitan file, though that is optimistic to the point of foolishness. Anyway, for the discerning shovel-people out there, here are a few more y'all might like.

Okay, I'm done, I'll see you all later. Peace.

 

[Quiggifur]

Something else one can do with a shovel:

 

[Gorog]

I saw that ridiculousness on the Cold Steel 'commercial' for their products. I'm not going to hate on Cold Steel, its improper, especially in this forum, all I can say, is that they should be more forthright about the materials they use. Medium carbon steel could apply to any number of steels that are good and bad, how are we to know? Hardwood handle? Every company that cranks out shovels these days uses hardwood in at least one model of shovel, unless there is a pure fiberglass or steel company out there... anyway what kind of hardwood do they use? It just seems a little unusual for Cold Steel to keep their customers guessing about something that should be precise, like Condor, they tell you right off the bat, that their shovels are 1045 carbon steel. Peace.

 

[Ryan M]

Absolute hardest, most durable file you can get would be a diamond "file" (really more of a hone). An extra-coarse DMT hone (220 grit, I think) will remove metal nearly as fast as a single-cut bastard file, on medium-hardness steel stuff, and maybe half as fast on very soft steel. IIRC, it only took maybe 20-25 minutes for me to fix up a really chewed-up lawnmower blade, despite the fact that I was using a tiny little 4" x 1" pocket hone. It definitely beat having to drive to the hardware store and spend money on a new one.

I really recommend DMT over cheaper brands. Those things last pretty much forever, while the other brands of diamond hone I've tried have developed "bald spots" where the nickel plating (and the diamond in it) flaked off, after about a year.

Only problem is they're kinda expensive, especially in the larger sizes, and the double-sided ones. A 6" x 2" single-sided stone runs around $40. Definitely worth it in the long run, if you use it a lot.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Gorog, get a good USGI WWII or Korea era entrenching tool (they have the straight wood handle, folding head, and the Korea era have a pick on the back), and don't look back. They are flat out the best e-tools out there. Get a real one, not "GI-style".

Since your mom apparently has no problem with you having tools, see if you can get a WWII-era USGI pick mattock. With a pick a shovel and an axe, you can build an empire.

 

[Gorog]

Haha, we'll see about that...my mom is still kind of leery about me getting another shovel, but I'll check on eBay or something, and get back to you, okay, Punishment? If I win a low cost bid, maybe she'll cave.... And thanks a lot for the information about diamond coated files, but, odds are, if they're coated in diamonds, they cost MONAY, something I have very little of at this time. And even so, my experience with diamond coated objects is that, while diamonds are nearly impossible to wear down, it is very easy to dislodge them from the steel, and render the hone just about useless. Of course, I was backstroking the hone in question, so perhaps that was the issue...I don't know, thanks again, Ryan. Oh, I was researching shovels late into the night, and apparently, no one on the internet has ever tried to make a shovel head out of tool steel or high speed steel. I know it would be impractical, possibly even dangerous to the user, but would it not be cool to have bragging rights about your shovel steel? Although, Predatortools comes somewhat close, as they use, unless my memory is faulty, 4130 steel to make both the handle, shaft, and blade, of their digging tools. Which is pretty cool. Though pretty pricey too, galdarnit. Okay, I'm out, peace everyone.
David

 

[Gorog]

Oh, and I found neat tool accessories that you all might find interesting. They are called Easi grips or Fist grips, and they are the stuff. Picture here:

Yeah, so, uh, if you want to get stuff done faster, those handles, plus the attachable cuffs, are the way to go. Okay, I'm out. Peace.

 

[Cpl Punishment]

Diamond hones "cut" both ways. It doesn't matter if you drag them or not, as they are really an abrasive, not a true file. You can get a Smith's diamond hone at my locval Wal*Mart for $15 and it has a coarse and fine side.

There are also actual metal files with diamonds embedded in them, I use ones by Geshwin, and those are expensive.

If you look on ebay, search for a user "stanwolcott", he usually has some very nice surplus for sale, and last I saw he had a few WWII era e-tools for $25 w/o carrier or $40 with the canvas carrier. You can message him from ebay and ask him about the condition of the ones he has in stock, I did that and he had a very nice one he sent me.

 

[Gorog]

Okay, cool. Oh, and I think I found my dream shovel, ain't she purty?

I mean, seriously, it looks like it was built to take down TREES, not dig holes. Do you think that's the best I can do with, or, would you still recommend this stanwolcott dude? Peace.

 

[Quiggifur]

Okay, cool. Oh, and I think I found my dream shovel, ain't she purty? I mean, seriously, it looks like it was built to take down TREES, not dig holes. Do you think that's the best I can do with, or, would you still recommend this stanwolcott dude? Peace.

All this shovel talk has had me looking as well. I think I just saw that model myself... If I'm not mistaken, that's a russian issue military shovel. I saw a review where it was compared to the coldsteel version, and the coldsteel shovel (which is based off of that design) was determined to be of slightly better/heavier construction (about 27 ounces compared to 21 ounces, 30% thicker, hardened whereas the original had no hardening whatsoever, though it was said that it probably wasn't necessary as they both performed very well). Personally, I like the idea of a non-folding shovel (less working parts, I'd have to imagine less possible issues).

It seems like it might be tough to find those original russian shovels over here, but I did find one site that seems to have them in good condition, as well as some other versions.

Here's a polish version, from that site:

Also a tip... You might all know this already, but I just recently figured it out and I'm kicking myself for not realizing it sooner. A normal google search usually doesn't bring up results from websites not in english, or at least not the great majority of them. If you're looking for something in particular, say something that is uncommon in this country but probably more common in another (for instance these russian shovels), do a search on that country's google, in this case www.google.ru. You might have to figure out what the word for the item is in the language in question, but in this way you can find things that will not come up in any english language search engine.

 

[Ryan M]

And thanks a lot for the information about diamond coated files, but, odds are, if they're coated in diamonds, they cost MONAY, something I have very little of at this time. And even so, my experience with diamond coated objects is that, while diamonds are nearly impossible to wear down, it is very easy to dislodge them from the steel, and render the hone just about useless. Of course, I was backstroking the hone in question, so perhaps that was the issue...I don't know, thanks again, Ryan.

Yeah, that's what's happened with all the cheap diamond files/hones I've had. They're made basically by putting diamond grit on a steel plate, then somehow applying nickel plating over top. After the first couple minutes of grinding, the nickel wears off the top of the diamonds, exposing them. With the cheaper no-name brand ones I've tried (also a $12 Schrade one) the diamonds do fall out pretty quickly, and/or the nickel flakes off. The things lose around half of their cutting ability within an hour or two, and then start to go completely bald after a year. That's why I recommend DMT in particular. ((edited link to non member vendor)) They last much longer than any of the other brands I've tried. Haven't managed to wear one out yet. You'd think the "polka dots" would be areas where the nickel would start peeling, but I've never seen it happen (I did have one that flaked a little bit right on one edge, though, which they replaced under warranty; and actually, since they didn't want me to send it back, I kept using it, and it's still completely fine other than the one little 1/16" x 1/2" spot on the edge, which hasn't grown any). If you shop around, a single-sided 6" x 2" hone is around $40.