i know, another question on parks vs canola..

V

vikingGoalie

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Aug 20, 2019
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so i'm still pretty new to all this, i've done a half dozen sharp pointy objects ;)
since i'm new to this, i read that 108x is very forgiving and an easy one to work with so that's what i've been doing.


So I read A LOT about quench oils and I came away with the understanding that canola oil was a decent alternative to parks 50 (and for your wallet).
But then I found this article: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2021/07/19/which-quenching-oil-is-best-for-knives/

which led me to question my understanding, as that seems to say that on 10xx steels that parks 50 can get a noticeably harder blade then canola.
I am making most of these to be used, meaning they will see abuse. So here i am, i have another 5 blades ready to heat treat, but all I have on hand is canola and I found that article....

I do want my edge to retain it's sharpness as well as it can, I'm not worried bout a 2 point difference on the RC scale. but that article above the difference was much more.

So, am I overthinking this? Is canola "close enough" or have people noticed a pretty decent difference? I'm thinking i'll just go thermocycle eveything meanwhile while i sort this out.
I am willing to go get some parks but if it's just throwing money at something that gives me 2% better results then no, and canola is pretty stable for me, i sill have some from 18 months ago and it's fine.
 
vikingGoalie said:
Is canola "close enough" or have people noticed a pretty decent difference?
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I'll 2nd Hoss's comment and paraphrase something I said just yesterday in a tool making workshop at our forge: we were focusing on top tooling for our new treadle hammer and talking about grain refinement and normalization, and the difficulty of doing this using an induction forge (a necessary tool when forging in 93+ degrees).
When a student asked me how important grain refinement is in these tools I said something to the effect of: "For our purposes and the tools we're making today for our shop (punches and fullering tools), grain refinement, while never a bad idea, probably isn't going to make a noticeable difference in the tooling for our shop. However, if we were making these tools to sell for someone else to use, then I would want to make sure I did everything on my end to make the best tool possible for the end user so we would be using the propane forge and finish the forging with a normalization cycle followed by 3 grain refinement cycles.
 
ok i will take these comments that yes it is indeed more then a negligable difference between heated up canola and parks 50 when quenching 10XX steels.

best my searching skills are finding right now is to get parks off amazon ~$50/gallon free delivery. i've seen references to maxim but they are all old. am i getting ripped off at that price by comparison?

I'm on my journey to get better at this, probably a long journey :) I totally agree with even if it's a gift I don't want crappy edge retention on something I give someone else. It'll be a while before i'd consider my work worthy of selling to someone.
 
If your profile was filled out with your location people might be able to tell you where to get it ... or even offer some free.
 
vikingGoalie said:
ok i will take these comments that yes it is indeed more then a negligable difference between heated up canola and parks 50 when quenching 10XX steels.

best my searching skills are finding right now is to get parks off amazon ~$50/gallon free delivery. i've seen references to maxim but they are all old. am i getting ripped off at that price by comparison?

I'm on my journey to get better at this, probably a long journey :) I totally agree with even if it's a gift I don't want crappy edge retention on something I give someone else. It'll be a while before i'd consider my work worthy of selling to someone.
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I don't think you're getting ripped off at that price. A few years ago I got a 5 gallon bucket of Dubois Chemical #50 quench, which as far as I can tell is the company who now makes what used to be called Parks 50, for $140 shipped. I just checked the price again, and it is now $213 plus $25 for shipping, for a 5 gallon bucket. So $50 per gallon sounds just right, assuming its the same stuff. And I will say, we used to use 1084 almost exclusively, and we could tell a noticeable difference in canola and Parks 50. They even sound different when you quench. Now we use the parks 50 for some steels, and AAA for others, but in both cases, the improvement was noticable over canola.
 
RedCrow said:
I don't think you're getting ripped off at that price. A few years ago I got a 5 gallon bucket of Dubois Chemical #50 quench, which as far as I can tell is the company who now makes what used to be called Parks 50, for $140 shipped. I just checked the price again, and it is now $213 plus $25 for shipping, for a 5 gallon bucket. So $50 per gallon sounds just right, assuming its the same stuff. And I will say, we used to use 1084 almost exclusively, and we could tell a noticeable difference in canola and Parks 50. They even sound different when you quench. Now we use the parks 50 for some steels, and AAA for others, but in both cases, the improvement was noticable over canola.
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Oddly enough, back then the #50 and the AAA were the same price. Now the AAA is the same price it used to be, at $140, but the #50 has gone up considerably.
 
RedCrow said:
Oddly enough, back then the #50 and the AAA were the same price. Now the AAA is the same price it used to be, at $140, but the #50 has gone up consider
RedCrow said:
I don't think you're getting ripped off at that price. A few years ago I got a 5 gallon bucket of Dubois Chemical #50 quench, which as far as I can tell is the company who now makes what used to be called Parks 50, for $140 shipped. I just checked the price again, and it is now $213 plus $25 for shipping, for a 5 gallon bucket. So $50 per gallon sounds just right, assuming its the same stuff. And I will say, we used to use 1084 almost exclusively, and we could tell a noticeable difference in canola and Parks 50. They even sound different when you quench. Now we use the parks 50 for some steels, and AAA for others, but in both cases, the improvement was noticable over canola.
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Thank you RedCrow! that is exactly what i was asking. I think i misinterpreted some threads I've read here, and other locations. That being there were some vocal people that claimed that if you heated your canola up that it was close to parks 50, but when i saw that article i linked at the beginning of the thread I was like, that's not a small difference, which is why I just asked.
if anyone wants the link on amazon, it's Mr. Volcano Parks 50
 
vikingGoalie said:
Thank you RedCrow! that is exactly what i was asking. I think i misinterpreted some threads I've read here, and other locations. That being there were some vocal people that claimed that if you heated your canola up that it was close to parks 50, but when i saw that article i linked at the beginning of the thread I was like, that's not a small difference, which is why I just asked.
if anyone wants the link on amazon, it's Mr. Volcano Parks 50
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If you are just making a few knives here and there, one gallon of #50 will last you indefinitely. And the results are more than worth the cost. Even if the knives are just gifts, the #50 gives you consistent results. Canola can be all over the place.
 
Just to add some info,

You want a sufficient volume of quenchant to extract the heat from the blade quickly. If doing a small blade a gallon will work. If the blade edge is more than 5" long or thick, you really need more oil.

For a good quench tank, the oil pool should be at least 6" wide and 3" deeper than the entire blade length including the tang. The tank should have at least two inches of wall above the oil surface. If your average blade is 7" long, the minimum tank would be 12" tall and 6" wide. That would hold 1.2 gallons at the 2" below the top line.
If your budget will only allow one gallon, you could use a 5X12" tank with a gallon of oil in it.

However, total mass of the quench oil is also a factor. A good general use tank has more mass of oil. A 30" piece of 8" pipe welded on a 12" disc of steel will make a wonderful tank that will work for most all blades. That will hold 5 gallons.
TIP - weld handles on both sides to make moving it easier and safer. Use a second 12" disc of steel with a welded-on handle as the lid.

All quench tanks need a good top or cover to keep stuff out. The oil will last almost forever for most hobby makers if kept free of trash and strained every year. If you do hamons, straining every ten or so blades might be a good idea.

Why do you need a tank deeper than the whole blade when you only need to harden the edge?
1) The heat from the unquenched tang will run down the thinner blade and reduce the hardness of the edge near the ricasso.

2) If the entire blade and the ends of the tongs are not under the oil the oil will ignite on the hot exposed metal and cause a flare-up. While FIF loves this effect it is not a good thing and also bad for the oil. Burning the oil reduces its life and effectiveness. The fire risk issue of any flames is obvious. If you get a flare-up when quenching a blade and pulling it out - PUT IT BACK IN THE TANK and let the flames on the surface die out. One of the main causes of a flare-up is the tongs are too hot. Don't keep the tongs in the forge and get them too hot if you can. If necessary, switch tongs just before the quench. The best way to deal with flare-ups and hot tongs is a tank sufficiently deep to prevent a flare-up. Also, don't pull the blade out too soon.

3) Going back to the quench tank size, the more oil that the blade quenches in, the better ... and the longer the oil will last. This means that you can rely on that 5-gallon tank of oil to give the same hardness results for many years. I have been using some parks 50 for twenty years and it seems to harden the same as before. If you have long down periods in your shop, you can pour the oil back in the five-gallon bucket and store it away until you get back to forging.

4) Final comments/suggestions -
Look around and you will see lots of great quench tanks. Some are free and some are very low price.
Ask the right way - If you explain that you make knives and are making a large quench tank, the answers are very different than if you just say, "Got any old beer kegs I can have."
Sources -
If there is a brewery or a beer delivery company near you, ask if they will give you a tank with damaged valves. You can take off the top and have a great stainless-steel tank. If you have a friend at a bar, have him/her ask their delivery driver for you. I have received several tanks for free that way.
Same for 5-gallon soda tanks at the local beverage supplier or fast-food/restaurant.
Old fire extinguishers
Ammo cans for rockets and mortars. Thes usually have tight fitting lids that latch shut. Some are sword size. I got one that was 44X12X8" and holds 15 gallons nicely. Paid scrap aluminum price for it.
Milk cans from a dairy farm. They come in many sizes and are often stainless steel. My regular quench tank is a 3-gallon milk can. It has a lid that fits it.
Odd cylindrical objects, etc. Once you start looking at things as potential quench tanks you will be amazed at how many things you see that will work.
A visit to a machine shop or place that does work for shipyards can easily get you a section of large stainless pipe for building a quench tank. A fire systems company may have all sorts of stuff in their junk pile, including pieces of large pipe.
 
thx Stacy and RedCrow, i have 2 gallons of parks 50 (isn't it crazy how you can order things from amazon and have it in less then 24hrs sometimes?). I'm only doing knives currently, only thing will be if i need to heat treat several and keeping the oil below the 120 degree max operating temp stated.
which actually might be a challenge at times as it's 100 outside right now so won't take much to jack it up to 120.
for a quench vessel, I have a mortar ammo can.
 
so I couldn't wait :) got the oil in today and setup and did some HT.

I gotta say, even with my limited experience, I noticed a difference with the parks 50. With 2 gallons, starting at a oil temp of 88 degrees, I did 6 blades using an infrared thermometer to monitor the oil's temp.
One, the steel was noticeably cooler to me after the quench then when using canola.
Two, no warping and I like to get some of the bevel grinding in before HT as it makes sense to me to get some of that done before the steel is hard.
Three, after blade 6 my oil temp was at 118.
My file skates on all of them, kinda wish I had a RC tester to know what hardness i hit but I think it's harder then what i've done previously but won't really know-know until i have an edge and I go abuse some of these to see how well they retain that edge.

once again thx everyone. blade making is a blast :)
picture: https://photos.app.goo.gl/p6eSs8QFvutzukJC9

I definitely screwed up a couple of those, but that's just an opportunity to learn...
 
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