I know this is a dead horse but I can't go outside to Forge

[Will Leavitt]

With all the threads and posts about maker's work/value, who they studied under and whether or not they quench blades in living animals; I just wanted to start another dead horse thread on quality.

A little background. I started working around the age of 12 cutting giant scale model airplane kits for my Godfather (Hangar One Hobbies, if anyone wanted to know) worked for 7 years at a cabinet manufacturer in positions from floor slave to Quality Control Manager and then Assembly manager before going to work full time for the National Guard. Medical discharge from the Army led me to work at Hyundai Motor Manufacturing Alabama, I work in quality control in the Dynamic QC where we do all functionality and track testing on every vehicle produced (I'm a test track driver mainly.) Most of my work experience has been in the Quality Control arena.

Everywhere I've ever worked there is what we would call AQL or acceptable quality level. A melamine cabinet for an apartment complex has a different AQL than a distressed rock maple cabinet going in a show home. A Hyundai has a different AQL than a Rolls Royce. We have several "benchmark" vehicles at the plant we use for instance one of them is a Lexus, defects in the Lexus that are obvious to me aren't so obvious even to other non-QC employees.

All of the babble above is just to get to this point...... If you took one of my best knives and put a MS name and stamp on it people would pay the $$$ if you took a knife from a MS and put my name on it people would pay the $150 or so I charge per knife. HMA ran a test with our VeraCruz SUV, 200 people looked at it without labels on it and 75% said they would buy it, they put Hyundai labels on it and 25% said they would buy it, Toyota labels and 50% said they would buy it.

Do you as the buyer expect the same AQL from a $150 knife as a $1500 knife? Do you think that to expect the same is realistic? I make each and every blade to the best of my abilities and expect to improve on every knife I make. Should I charge $157.75 on the next and improved knife?

I guess this is getting back to the "buy the maker or knife" thread but ah well.

 

[ryan9977]

will....the way i look at is this:.....i own knives by j.s. makers....m.s. and unknown knifemakers ......when i buy a knife of a certain price range i expect the quality to reflect the price.....if i buy a 150 dollar knife.....i don't expect it to be flawless......on a 1500 dollar knife from a mastesmith......it better be alot higher in quality.....that is not to say it is flawless.....nothing is in life......i used to decorate wedding cakes for a living.....they were extremely expensive.....i have made cakes that take weeks to prepare for.....that cost thousands of dollars......i have had plenty of losers complain about them....did i let it bother me .....no.....there were alot of positive comments and happy customers.....i think for the most part, the custom forum is a great place.....sometimes people get out of hand....sometimes people should just let comments go.....and it turns into a war.....i say make the best knives u can make and be proud.....it only matters what you think and if you are happy.....if someone wants to make constructive criticism then so be it.....we are allowed.....even if you didn't ask for it.....why....because this is a public forum and anybody that has a computer on the planet can say whatever they want.......ryan

 

[RogerP]

Do you as the buyer expect the same AQL from a $150 knife as a $1500 knife? Do you think that to expect the same is realistic? I make each and every blade to the best of my abilities and expect to improve on every knife I make. Should I charge $157.75 on the next and improved knife?

The question as framed can be a bit tough to answer. I have knives from the same maker (Burt Foster) at both those price points (roughly) and I would say the quality is the same. One is vastly more complex and uses much higher grade materials, but the quality of craftsmanship is the same.

More to the point of your question, though, I don't generally have the same expectations - in terms of quality - from a $150 knife as one at ten times the price, nor do I hold a newer maker to the same expectations as one who has been producing at the MS level for a decade.

And I have bought knives from makers at all levels at prices ranging from $40 to $3000. I maintain that high quality and strong value are obtainable across a broad range as is not something reserved for the upper eschelon.

Roger

 

[Will Leavitt]

Roger I agree that because a blade cheaper is no reason for sloppy fit and finish especially from the same maker. My thinking is that there should be reasonable expectations of quality in the different price ranges.

 

[RogerP]

Roger I agree that because a blade cheaper is no reason for sloppy fit and finish especially from the same maker. My thinking is that there should be reasonable expectations of quality in the different price ranges.

I agree with all of that.

Roger

 

[Kevin Jones]

IMO, a maker's quality should be consistence from his entry model all the way to his top of the line.
The price difference should be in the materials and labor associated with the particular knife.

I do however expect better fit & finish and execution from a maker that's producing $1500 knives than $750 than $250 and so on.

Unfortunately, this is not always the case though. I recently purchased a knife for $11,000 (and returned it) where the F&F&E was not as good as $500 knives I have purchased.

A maker's name is not always a guarantee of quality.

 

[Keith Montgomery]

I am not looking for the same thing from $150.00 knives that I am from $1500.00 ones. When I spend $150.00 on a knife, it is going to be a user. I want it to be well made from a good steel, have good fit and finish, be able to hold an edge and be fairly easy to sharpen. When I spend $1500.00 I am adding a knife to my collection. The materials have to be much more upscale. The fit and finish has to be better than good. I will probably be looking for pattern welded steel or W-2/1095 with a nice hamon.

I do expect a maker to do the best job he/she can do on a $150.00 knife taking into consideration the fact that there is only so much that can be done for that kind of money. I am not unrealistic in my expectations. On my $150.00 knife use 1075, a good quality low cost wood or Micarta, and don't take the polish to as high a grit, but make me the best knife you can for the money I am paying.

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

All of the babble above is just to get to this point...... If you took one of my best knives and put a MS name and stamp on it people would pay the $$$ if you took a knife from a MS and put my name on it people would pay the $150 or so I charge per knife. HMA ran a test with our VeraCruz SUV, 200 people looked at it without labels on it and 75% said they would buy it, they put Hyundai labels on it and 25% said they would buy it, Toyota labels and 50% said they would buy it.

You have a lot to learn about sales and marketing. What can a driver learn about a car in a 10 minute test drive? If you compare the long-term reliability of Toyota to a Hyundai there is no contest. In the long haul, Toyota/Lexus has come out on top in every category in every survey- thats why the label matters!

There is a reason why a Master Bladesmith like Jerry Fisk who has been making knives for 20 years or a top journeyman smith like Russ Andrews who has been making knives for 40 years can get more money than you for a knife of similar complexity. Firstly, they have an established BRAND. (I have never heard of Will Leavitt, knifemaker.)
Second, they have a history of meeting or exceeding standards of performance. The ABS process assures a buyer that a knife they are buying has been made by a maker that can pass stringent performance and quality testing. What standardized QC testing have your knives undergone?

Lastly, collectors just don't buy the name, or the story, some actually buy the knife too.
Different levels of complexity and mastery bring different levels of pricing.

Why don't you post some pictures of your knives?

 

[Will Leavitt]

You have a lot to learn about sales and marketing. What can a driver learn about a car in a 10 minute test drive? If you compare the long-term reliability of Toyota to a Hyundai there is no contest. In the long haul, Toyota/Lexus has come out on top in every category in every survey- thats why the label matters!

There is a reason why a Master Bladesmith like Jerry Fisk who has been making knives for 20 years or a top journeyman smith like Russ Andrews who has been making knives for 40 years can get more money than you for a knife of similar complexity. Firstly, they have an established BRAND. (I have never heard of Will Leavitt, knifemaker.)
Second, they have a history of meeting or exceeding standards of performance. The ABS process assures a buyer that a knife they are buying has been made by a maker that can pass stringent performance and quality testing. What standardized QC testing have your knives undergone?

Lastly, collectors just don't buy the name, or the story, some actually buy the knife too.
Different levels of complexity and mastery bring different levels of pricing.

Why don't you post some pictures of your knives?

Fair enough questions there BandB...

Last couple of years, Hyundai as a brand has beaten Toyota, only the Lexus label brings Toyota through on the surveys. I only have 8 minutes to test drive Hyundais every day at work..... let me drive your car for 8 minutes and guess what I'll tell you

I'm an ABS apprentice, I've made knives off and on for nearly 10 years, I've taken a hiatus due to personal issues for the last almost 3 years now and am just back making knives. I doubt you'd have heard of me because even when I sold knives on BFC I wasn't someone you'd buy from because most of my knives are lower price range/user type knives. I have a fair following around here and sell about 4-6 hunters/users a month if I want to make them but I'm slowing down on my orders to work on some techniques.

My standardized testing includes every new batch of steel making a blade and verifying HT and tempering processes, cutting tests and destruction tests before breaking the blade to examine grain structures. All new designs or changes to existing designs are tested either through a passaround or handing off to several end users whose opinion I trust. I've been testing a chef's knife with my brother and a couple other chef's I know.

I will post some pictures of my knives when I finish another one up.... here's a teaser for it. It's an EDC with a semi-wharnie/spearpoint blade in 1084, SS ferrule and butt cap with a cocobolo handle, blade with be differentially heat treated, 1000x hand rubbed finish with a versatile sheath system I'm working the kinks through right now. The knife will be handed out for testing by the BFC community on the passaround forums. I'm calling this model "The Piper" because the handle shape is inspired by the sandpipers I see at work on the track. Shall I put you down as the first person in the passaround?

I've seen and handled MS knives that I wouldn't have sent out of my shop. I've seen and handled JS knives that make me want to burn my anvil to the ground in a large slag pile.

Lastly, I'm not a brand at the moment, I'm a knifemaker. Even if noone bought another knife from me I'd make knives. As a collector could you say if noone else sold another knife you'd be a knife collector? I made 100 knives and gave them as gifts to family and guys at the hunting club before someone said, "Will, how much to make something like this?" wow, people actually buy knives?


I'm not trying to start a s#$# storm here, I'm trying to wrap my head around what you "collector" types want from us, I know what hunters, soldiers and people that use knives every day want, you collector types are a horse of a different color.

 

[RogerP]

I will post some pictures of my knives when I finish another one up.... here's a teaser for it. It's an EDC with a semi-wharnie/spearpoint blade in 1084, SS ferrule and butt cap with a cocobolo handle, blade with be differentially heat treated, 1000x hand rubbed finish with a versatile sheath system I'm working the kinks through right now. The knife will be handed out for testing by the BFC community on the passaround forums. I'm calling this model "The Piper" because the handle shape is inspired by the sandpipers I see at work on the track. Shall I put you down as the first person in the passaround?

Holy moly - that's not one of the $150 jobs, is it? Please allow me to elbow Anthony the hell out of the way for the passaround!

Roger

 

[Charles M]

Lastly, I'm not a brand at the moment, I'm a knifemaker. Even if noone bought another knife from me I'd make knives. As a collector could you say if noone else sold another knife you'd be a knife collector? I made 100 knives and gave them as gifts to family and guys at the hunting club before someone said, "Will, how much to make something like this?" wow, people actually buy knives?

I'm not trying to start a s#$# storm here, I'm trying to wrap my head around what you "collector" types want from us, I know what hunters, soldiers and people that use knives every day want, you collector types are a horse of a different color.

Come on Will, tell us how you really feel!

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

Fair enough questions there BandB...

Last couple of years, Hyundai as a brand has beaten Toyota, only the Lexus label brings Toyota through on the surveys. I only have 8 minutes to test drive Hyundais every day at work..... let me drive your car for 8 minutes and guess what I'll tell you

You would like my car, its a Lexus RX.

I'm an ABS apprentice, I've made knives off and on for nearly 10 years, I've taken a hiatus due to personal issues for the last almost 3 years now and am just back making knives. I doubt you'd have heard of me because even when I sold knives on BFC I wasn't someone you'd buy from because most of my knives are lower price range/user type knives. I have a fair following around here and sell about 4-6 hunters/users a month if I want to make them but I'm slowing down on my orders to work on some techniques.

So why are you having a problem understanding why your knife isn't worth as much to a collector as an established "Brand"?
What you don't know about me is that I have bought dozens of "users" over the years. I hunt. I fish. I test. I cut. I cook. Just because I have enough disposable income to buy a few or a dozen handmades knives every year doesn't mean I don't know how to skin a deer or a bear or clean a turkey.

My standardized testing includes every new batch of steel making a blade and verifying HT and tempering processes, cutting tests and destruction tests before breaking the blade to examine grain structures. All new designs or changes to existing designs are tested either through a passaround or handing off to several end users whose opinion I trust. I've been testing a chef's knife with my brother and a couple other chef's I know.

I like your testing philosophy

I will post some pictures of my knives when I finish another one up.... here's a teaser for it. It's an EDC with a semi-wharnie/spearpoint blade in 1084, SS ferrule and butt cap with a cocobolo handle, blade with be differentially heat treated, 1000x hand rubbed finish with a versatile sheath system I'm working the kinks through right now. The knife will be handed out for testing by the BFC community on the passaround forums. I'm calling this model "The Piper" because the handle shape is inspired by the sandpipers I see at work on the track. Shall I put you down as the first person in the passaround?

Yes , I would like that very much.

I've seen and handled MS knives that I wouldn't have sent out of my shop. I've seen and handled JS knives that make me want to burn my anvil to the ground in a large slag pile.

Yep. You have to sift through the chaff to get to wheat in every discipline. I have knives made by MS's when they were JS's that were better knives, too.

Lastly, I'm not a brand at the moment, I'm a knifemaker. Even if noone bought another knife from me I'd make knives. As a collector could you say if noone else sold another knife you'd be a knife collector? I made 100 knives and gave them as gifts to family and guys at the hunting club before someone said, "Will, how much to make something like this?" wow, people actually buy knives?

The fact that you are not a "Brand" is why your market position is what it is. Unknown. I buy forged knives to use and collect. I have never heard of you. Thats not my fault. Its yours. And your circumstances. It would help as a maker to put your name somewhere in your posts. and yes, there are makers that if they never made another knife, I would seek their work. There are lots of knives to choose from out there. There are a few thousand, second-hand custom , handmade knives on ebay right now waiting to get bought.

I'm not trying to start a s#$# storm here, I'm trying to wrap my head around what you "collector" types want from us, I know what hunters, soldiers and people that use knives every day want, you collector types are a horse of a different color.

I have news for you. Collector types are hunters, soldiers and people that use knives every day too. We don't all work on wall street and have trust funds. We are different because many of us are INVESTED in knives. Some of us on this forum (not me) have hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of handmade knives. We know what we like to a degree and we act with our wallets. We are good customers to good makers.

 

[Will Leavitt]

BandB,
Here's where you and I are kinda diverging in our thoughts.... I don't worry about market position, I don't worry about branding and at the moment I don't worry about the secondary market. I realize in the future if I wish to make the move to the mid and upper price ranges in knives I will have to have at least a semi-established "branding" as a maker of quality knives worthy of the asking price. Right now I'm working on improving techniques that I feel are not my strongest area and making a high quality knife that exceeds customers expectations.

Here's where I think people are misunderstanding what I was asking. I just wanted to know if people have the same expectation of quality of a $150 blade as a $1400 (assuming not from the same maker, I would have equal expectations of quality from the same maker).

The reason a lot of the makers don't post in here is that some of them are worried about pissing the collectors off with a comment or 10. In real life most people either love or hate me, not much middle ground I figure it's probably the same here so I have nothing to lose, I've probably lost some potential customers, maybe gained a few. My teacher is a full time knifemaker, he'll probably chew me a new one for this thread and it's potential to cost me customers.

I think you probably meant putting my (Will Leavitt) website up in the posts instead of my name (Will Leavitt), I did change my s/n to my name, Will Leavitt. My website (Leavittknives) is currently under construction, I'm not real happy with the site designer (Will Leavitt, Leavittknives) so I'm working on that also(Will Leavitt) If you meant that I needed to include my name more in threads (Will Leavitt) I know (Leavittknives) that repetition is the key for a lot of advertising (Will Leavitt).

It really is kind of funny that the BUSINESS of knifemaking/collecting may drive a wedge between knifemakers and collectors. (Will@Leavittknives.com)

edited to add: errrrrrrr I'm not allowed to say what vehicles we have as benchmark vehicles but I have driven the Lexus RX several times, nice ride, very quiet for an SUV.

 

[braillediver]

Is Quality the same as Fit and Finish?


Mitch

 

[Will Leavitt]

I would say that fit and finish are part of Quality, that Quality includes the heat treat and tempering processes.

 

[Bladeandbarrel]

Here's where I think people are misunderstanding what I was asking. I just wanted to know if people have the same expectation of quality of a $150 blade as a $1400 (assuming not from the same maker, I would have equal expectations of quality from the same maker).

I think most collectors would expect and demand that a $150 handmade knife have equal or better fit, finish, design and sharpness/edge holding as a $150 street price production knife. That is my minimum standard. That is why I stopped collecting custom tactical folders... Very few are made with the fit/finish/precision as a $150-300 street price Spyderco, Microtech, Reeve, or Benchmade. For example, I recently got a Spyderco Stretch-2. Gorgeous, polished ZDP-189 blade, textured carbon fiber handles, rock solid lock and excellent fit and finish. I don't know of a hand made knife that can compete with that for under $600. This is a knife assembled in Japan. It is hand finished of precision parts. Hand polished and hand sharpened.

I think you probably meant putting my (Will Leavitt) website up in the posts instead of my name (Will Leavitt), I did change my s/n to my name, Will Leavitt. My website (Leavittknives) is currently under construction, I'm not real happy with the site designer (Will Leavitt, Leavittknives) so I'm working on that also(Will Leavitt) If you meant that I needed to include my name more in threads (Will Leavitt) I know (Leavittknives) that repetition is the key for a lot of advertising (Will Leavitt).

It really is kind of funny that the BUSINESS of knifemaking/collecting may drive a wedge between knifemakers and collectors. (Will@Leavittknives.com)

edited to add: errrrrrrr I'm not allowed to say what vehicles we have as benchmark vehicles but I have driven the Lexus RX several times, nice ride, very quiet for an SUV.

[/QUOTE]

Ok, I apologize Will. I thought your name was a "handle" as in "Will Leave It Alone"..thats how ignorant I am of you and your work.

I love my Lexus-Almost 50,000 miles on it last year Smooth as glass.