I know what I want next :)

Joined
Jul 19, 1999
Messages
443
I was just watching a show on the local network. "Jason and the Argonauts" It wasn't a very good production. Could have been locally (Made in Australia) done. Whatever it is, the thing that caught my attention was the troops of the king who had the golden fleece that Jason was trying to steal (did you manage to follow that?
smile.gif
) were using kopi(sp?) instead of the standard straight blades you kind of expect to see. Now I always told myself that the next blade I buy from HI would be more suited to battle, and I was hoping to find a blade similar in form and function to the kopi that I saw.

I know I need help in more ways than one
smile.gif
, but the areas I was hoping you, my fellow forumites, could help me with are pointing me to links where they have pictures of the kopi so that I can fully form the idea that I have, and also to suggest current HI models that most closely resemble the kopi in form and function.

TIA

------------------
---------------
They can try to take my knives.

Steelwolf: adamas lupus
A strange wolf-like creature that needs to feed on Tuf-Cloths to maintain it's silvery coat.
Will turn rust coloured otherwise. Colour also changes according to its temper.
Quaerite prime regnum Dei
Seek ye first the Kingdom of God

 
Steelwolf,
The pic you linked to shows a replica of a 2nd Century Spanish falcata made by Del Tin in Italy, sold by, among others, Albion Armory. I have often considered buying one of these to play with, but have been put off by the description of the blade as "chrome vanadium steel". I assume this means some unnamed form of stainless, which I have always understood to make lousy swords, though I realize O-1 (for example) could be called "chrome vanadium) steel. Does anyone have any info on this (Rusty, don't you have a Del Tin?). BTW, I'm sure the BirGorkha kamis could duplicate the blade easily, but I assume that the cast bronze hilt is not something they'd be interested in for a limited production run
smile.gif
.
Berk


[This message has been edited by Berkley (edited 07-22-2000).]
 
Yes, a 2142, 48" oal, w/ 39" blade. Described as a hand and a half, it is more of a two handed war sword.

Tom Holt different model but similar sword and found he had to shorten the blade ( was it about 6"? ) to make it handle as a proper bastard sword should - and yes, that is precisely accurate usage. A bastard ( or the politically correct 1 1/2 hand ) sword should be the same length ( or close ) as a single hand.

Far as the steel, I'm metallurgically challenged. Tom will know.
 
OK; long post coming up...


"Chrome vanadium" steel; - vanadium is used in steel alloys to retard the growth of the grain and control grain structures during heat treatment; alloys containing vanadium withstand shock better than regular carbon steel. Chrome increases depth of hardening and responsiveness to heat treatment. Both additives have a downside - chrome promoted cracking during the forging process, vanadium promotes 'red-hardness' ie resistance to the hammer at red heat.

Chrome and vanadium are present in L6, used for making saw-blades (o.o3% chrome, 0.15% vanadium) and the stainless air-hardening alloy D2 (12% chrome, 1% vanadium).

I believe Del Tin do use chrome vanadium alloys for their blades; this would make sense, since their swords are extensively used for edge-to-edge bashing in re-enactment 'fighting', where the toughness imparted by vanadium would be invaluable. The drawbacks during forging of both chrome and vanadium don't apply to Del Tin blades, since they're not forged but ground down out of laser-cut blanks and then heat-treated. If Windlass (makers of the most commonly available 'falcata' replica)purport to offer chrome vanadium alloy blades, I personally wouldn't give spit for them - WC blades *are* forged, I understand, and the drawbacks implicit in the materials would only amplify their general lack of reliable quality.

Del Tin used to make a 'falcata' replica (don't know if they still do) - given the *very* high reputation of DT products and my own experience with DT swords, I guess you couldn't go far wrong with one, tho' they're quite expensive IIRC

As for the machaera, aka kopis, aka falcata, I've posted more than enough about the history of this blade since I started hanging out in the cantina, and I won't bore everyone again.

The first khukuri I ordered from HI was a special-order replica of a machaera, based on sketches I sent to Uncle Bill. When it arrived, the blade was outstanding in both quality and aesthetics (wonderful deep-fullered blade and carved handles) and bore virtually no resemblance whatsoever to either my sketches or an ancient Greek sword (but it's a masterpiece of the kamis' art, so who gives a damn?)

A very talented British swordsmith called Ian Whitefield made me a superb replica machaera, including the integral hilt horns. From using this, I can testify that the machaera is a wonderfully efficient cutting tool, similar to a khuk but with significant differences; I'm not qualified to pontificate about martial arts, but IMHO a good machaera replica would make a better fighting weapon than any khuk except, possibly, an oversize and elongated Gelbu Special.

I'm sure that Bura or Kumar could make a really first-class machaera, if they had a wooden pattern to copy; as Bill's told us scores of times, the kamis have trouble working from a sketch or drawing. If the copy included the integral hilt horns of the ancient Greek original sword (now in the British Museum, London) that Museum Replicas and Fulvio Del Tin copied, pretty much exactly, when designing their 'Spanish falcata', it'd be an expensive piece to make - forging the horns took Ian Whitefield longer than making the blade. But the horns aren't an essential part of the design - most machaeras had a simple cross-hilt - and without them, the machaera is no harder to make than a fullered khukuri.

If five people want one, I'll gladly make a wooden model.
 
Hmm... Thanks so far for all the interesting answers. Right now, I'm doing a search in the archives for more threads where the kopis, kopesh, machaera and falcata are mentioned.

It would seem that the design I saw was a falcata, but on the other hand, I'm probably just biased because (a) it looks so cool, (b) the only other blade form I've seen so far that even closely resembles it is the kukri, and those were not Gorhkas in that movie.

Tom, thanks for your offer. I definitely would like one of our kamis to produce such a blade for me, but not just yet. I want to do a little more research. I do know that despite the sort of standing that Del Tin Antiche (is this a person or a company?) seems to have in the sword making community, I would like to have one that is built traditionally and with proven capability for hard work.

So the question still remains: which of the current models offered by HI most closely resembles the falcata in form and function, and can anybody point me to more pictures and articles (not just in BFC) of these ancient weapons.

BTW, I'm thinking if the blade is ever built, it should be about 26" long, meant for one and a half hand wielding (ie, typically use one hand to wield but with space enough to put second hand for added leverage), with a full tang as opposed to the stick tangs currently in use in most kukris and not too forward balanced so that I can wield it with speed.
 
Steelwolf,
I'll guess that Tom Holt got so carried away talking about metallurgy and swordmaking, he uncharacteristically
smile.gif
forgot to mention the 25" Kobra, which from all accounts comes closest to what you're looking for.
Berk
 
Speaking of Falcatas: Del Tin vs. Museum Replicas (Windlass Blades) they are still available. The Del Tin blade has a point of balance about 2.5" - 3" from the handle, while the Windlass blades has one closer to 6" from the handle. The Del Tin has a distal taper while the Windlass has a slight distal taper. The Windlass blade (the one I tested ) was alot better then their earlier attempts. The hardness of the blade was consistant through out the entire cutting edge. Their blade did well on the tatami rolls that I use (after properly sharpening it). Fit and finish was alot better now. The Del tin was more impressive. This blade felt alot livlier in ones hand and I would pick this on for battle. Also, alot more expensive about $100 difference. Hope this helps.
 
Steelwolf - Have you got a fax machine? If so, e-mail me your number and I'll fax you a photograph of the machaera in the British Museum, which is the best preserved example AFAIK. You'll see that the DT/Windlass copies are very close indeed in appearance to the real thing.

If you like, I can also send you pix of Greek vase paintings that show how the machaera was used, with a very distinctive overhead slicing technique. (It works, BTW, at least on timber and brush...)

You wrote -

"BTW, I'm thinking if the blade is ever built, it should be about 26" long, meant for one and a half hand wielding (ie, typically use one hand to wield but with space enough to put second hand for added leverage), with a full tang as opposed to the stick tangs currently in use in most kukris and not too forward balanced so that I can wield it with speed."

That's a pretty accurate description of the machaera replica I had built by the English 'smith I mentioned. I understand your reluctance to go with the Del Tin replica, in spite of DT's fine reputation for quality - stock removal just ain't the same, whereas with the kamis, you're as close as you'll get nowadays to a replica made the way they were 2,500 years ago. It was the direct line of tradition connecting the machaera to the khuk that made me think of having HI build a machaera in the first place.

Berkeley; no, the 25" Kobra doesn't look or handle like the machaera; the machaera blade is wider and thinner, both at spine and in cross-section, and the curve profiles and weight distribution are different. The machaera slices rather than chops, using its concave curves to draw-cut rather more than any khuk I've tried, and it's very fast indeed in the hand; it will also change direction quicker than the khuk, which can be hard to stop once it's been launched... The nearest HI blade IMHO is the Gelbu Special; you could *almost* reforge/grind a long GS into a machaera.

(This isn't, of course, any implied diss to the 25" Kobra; which, as I think I may possibly have mentioned once or twice before, I rather like...)
 
Hi.

The machaera sounds very interesting. I'd love to see a concept sketch or photograph. Unfortunately, i have no fax number. Do you have anything that you could link to or e-mail me? The knife sound very much like one that I would like. If so, I would be very interested in buying one. Thanks for all the info Tom.

Dave
(a materials scientist who loves to learn and appreciates sword/knife metallurgy)
 
Kamui - Sorry, I don't know of any online resources about the machaera or Greek weapons generally. The standard book on the subject is 'Arms & Armor of Ancient Greece' by Snodgrass. There's a good photo of the British Museum machaera in the book, together with pix of vase paintings showing how the machaera was handled.

FWIW, the picture of the Del Tin replica shown in the URL cited above in this thread looks very much like the BM machaera.

As to which I'd personally prefer to use in a fight, the wakizashi or the machaera; I'd go with the wakizashi (assuming there was no chance of running away, hiding or surrendering without getting killed) - for the simple reason that the only martial art I've trained in is Iaido, and because of my tendonitis I've always trained with a wakizashi rather than a katana.

I took up Iaido because it seems to me to be the art of *not* sword-fighting... it's the art of winning the fight before it begins. If you can go from rest to slicing open the other guy's gun or knife hand in 5/8 of a second, there's no "fight", and nobody gets killed. Ideal. But I don't think of it as a 'combat art', because it consists of basically one trick, for which the wakizashi is ideally suited. Personally, I don't think the wakizashi is ideal for anything else.

If if you want my opinion as to which is the better weapon, in the hands of a skilled martial artist, I'd have to say the machaera; because of (a) its cutting geometry (b) its inherent toughness, which would make it capable of being used against body-armor as well as 'soft-skinned game' (In the Sword Forum URL cited above in this thread, IIRC, Dr Jim Hrisoulas describes how he cut a US military steel helmet *in half* with a blow from a machaera he'd made for himself. I guess you might be able to do this with a katana - preferably somebody else's katana - but not a wakizashi.


I have no practical experience in fighting (thank God!) so this is pure speculation; but I believe that a machaera replica in the hands of a skilled martial artist would be pretty close to the ultimate non-projectile sidearm. For lesser mortals, I'd propose the yataghan as the next best thing, and a degree easier to manage.

I'd very much like to hear the views of the many martial arts experts on this forum regarding what form of sword/edged weapon discipline they believe is most suited for practical self-defence and problem resolution in modern everyday life. For example; a guy who you have strong reason to believe is going to kill you makes a move for (a) his gun (b) his knife. What weapon would you prefer to have with you, how would you be carrying it, and what MA discipline or technique would you use?
 
Great thread. There's a lot of interesting stuff here. I have questions and comments, so I guess I'll start with the comments...

I have no life or death combat experience either, (I also thank god) - but I have studied various martial arts since I was 19 (I'm 37 now), and although I'm neither an expert or even a great student, I've been priviledged to have some exceptional teachers - literally world class. It seems to me that everything depends on the situation. How far apart are we? If I size him up - what kind of fighter do I see? All other things being equal, I think I'd like to have my Gelbu Special. It's light enough to move quickly, and heavy enough to do serious damage even if it only connects with the flat or the back of the blade. I've heard the sirupati's are preferred by bando people, but I haven't handled one yet.

Now a question. I just picked up an Osprey book on Rome's Enemies which details the Iberian tribes who carried the falcata. What is the difference between the falcata and the machaera? Is it just semantics?
 
TomH, I don't have a fax number either, but I can run my computer as one. Just need to know when you intend to send it and I'll leave my computer running. (i.e. email me your local time and date you intend to send it and your locale's difference from Greenwich Meantime.) Many thanks.

You also mentioned a yataghan. How does that compare to a falcata? And is there an online picture of the BM Machaera that you mentioned?
 
Just noticed the other thread with pictures of the yataghan. Although it looks nice, that is definitely not the blade I have in mind. Just a little too thin for my liking. If it gets to that sort of thinness, I think I would rather get a US Cavalry Sabre. Not that I could, since I wouldn't be able to bring a full sized sword home.
frown.gif
 
Back
Top