-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is ready to order! See this thread for details: https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/bladeforums-2024-traditional-knife.2003187/
Price is$300$250 ea (shipped within CONUS). If you live outside the US, I will contact you after your order for extra shipping charges.
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/ - Order as many as you like, we have plenty.
I need a finer bench stone for soft steels. Maybe Arkansas?
- Thread starter Squashfan
- Start date
BluntCut MetalWorks
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2012
- Messages
- 3,462
Instead of getting a slow Arkystone, why not get a fine grit waterstone - such as 8K/10K/12K? You get similar finish & consistency much faster with a waterstone.
Could I also use that waterstone for sharpening my woodworking tools? I started this thread with my EDC knives in mind but if I go to waterstones, I will want to be able to use the stone for as much as possible. Changing gears, I have seen references to that stone on straight razor forums. Where does it fall in grit size when sharpening straight razors? I actually have a barber who wants to teach me how to sharpen a straight razor. But that would take a whole 'nother thread
I don't know quite how to explain it but I have been using a Norton India stone. Some of my the old carbon steel knives, I have noticed that they seem to run really soft by modern standards. And the India is like a nuclear bomb on them. It cuts real quick but I have a hard time really refining the edge and eliminating the burr. This problem has also reared its head on some stainless kitchen knives IE Victorinox. I do have all three Spyderco Ceramic stones so I also want a stone to act as a stepping stone from the India to the ceramics. It is too much of a grit jump now. So what ever you recommend for doing the above.
As long as I can use it for more than just knives, but I don't want to overlap in fineness with my ceramic stones. What kind of water stones would you recommend?
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2007
- Messages
- 11,191
The Naniwa 2k green brick of joy is renowned in sharpening circles as THE stone for softer carbon and stainless. It is the go-to stone for German cutlery and it a all around must have stone to ANY stone set.
It it has a working range from 2000 to 4000, meaning that in the start of its use the scratch pattern is 2000 but as you work the blade on the stone the stone loads with a bit of metal and the finish quickly refines to 4000+. The impressive qualit of the resulting edge gives you a mix of a toothy and polished. This is a softer stone and can easily be gouged, straight razors and chisels are not a recommended use of this stone. The Norton India would be too coarse of a stone to use before the 2k GB, a simple 1k like the very common King 1k would be a ideal given the softer steels you have to sharpen.
Most 1k stones will be finer but cut with about the same speed as the India.
Naniwa has released some new stone called the traditional series, I would recommend the Naniwa traditional 1000 and Naniwa 2k GB for the steels you want to sharpen.
Chisels would require harder stones stones like the Shapton pro.
Razors would require finer stones and in my experience the 2k GB is not suited for razors.
It it has a working range from 2000 to 4000, meaning that in the start of its use the scratch pattern is 2000 but as you work the blade on the stone the stone loads with a bit of metal and the finish quickly refines to 4000+. The impressive qualit of the resulting edge gives you a mix of a toothy and polished. This is a softer stone and can easily be gouged, straight razors and chisels are not a recommended use of this stone. The Norton India would be too coarse of a stone to use before the 2k GB, a simple 1k like the very common King 1k would be a ideal given the softer steels you have to sharpen.
Most 1k stones will be finer but cut with about the same speed as the India.
Naniwa has released some new stone called the traditional series, I would recommend the Naniwa traditional 1000 and Naniwa 2k GB for the steels you want to sharpen.
Chisels would require harder stones stones like the Shapton pro.
Razors would require finer stones and in my experience the 2k GB is not suited for razors.
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2010
- Messages
- 6,642
Just a thought, but on softer (primarily) kitchen cutlery in carbon or stainless, you could try steeling the edge coming off the India stone. I tinker with this from time to time (am currently doing a little toying with it again) and it works frightfully good on low RC steel that has a good edge set to it. You can certainly go to a higher finish prior to doing it, but the finish off the India is fine, the 1k king stone would be better. Once you get to about the 6k-8k finish you will get progressively weaker returns.
Is very important to have the burr all but gone before starting because the smoother steel is incapable of removing the burr.
Is very important to not elevate the spine too high from the initial grind angle or you can fold the edge into a burr. You also cannot lower the angle if it should climb too high - it is determined by the highest angle pass you make, you cannot really correct an errant higher angle swipe, so sneak up on the edge. Very light pressure, less than the weight of the knife and about 8-10 passes are all that's needed. Slide it at an angle, do not go straight across per Verhoeven or it will be no better than a carbide scraper and you will experience ledge breakout. If done right, you will see a very small microbevel looking glint to the edge but no burr.
When you consider many of the common kitchen knives are upper 40s to low 50s RC, they can afford and actually benefit from a bit of cold working raising the RC a few points. If you don't have a steel, use the edge of some Pyrex or something like a chromed socket extension scuffed up lengthwise with sandpaper or on the fine side of your India stone.
Important! I am not talking about the horrible grooved ones that come in many knife blocks, it should have a smooth bright satin finish with the scratch pattern running lengthwise. If using glass don't worry about the surface, but you could scuff it up with some SiC wet/dry - 400 grit or so if you want.
I would not use this method on harder steels, high carbide steels, or your woodworking tools - go ahead and invest in a harder waterstone or two for those.
Martin
- Joined
- Mar 7, 2001
- Messages
- 4,608
Following David (OWE) advice that DMT F-EEF can be used for softer steel, I use DMT Extra Fine (1200) for my wife's Victorinox paring and she likes it better than when I use EEF (8000).
Finished with extra extra light edge leading (no burr). Strop on jeans (no compound) just to clean the remnants if any.
It's important to maintain my wife's happiness regarding the knives
For woodworking, I have no idea.
Finished with extra extra light edge leading (no burr). Strop on jeans (no compound) just to clean the remnants if any.
It's important to maintain my wife's happiness regarding the knives
For woodworking, I have no idea.
Last edited:
Well, half the reason I was looking for a finer stone was for gouges and V tools. The other half was for the knives. But I used knives as a catch all for the explanations. I thought that if it would do the soft steel knives, it would do for refining gouges and V tools. If the green brick is too soft to do chisels, I doubt it would work well for gouges. I didn't expect this scenario or I would have advised you of my thoughts.
Jason, I don't sharpen like you or most of the guys on here. All of my reprofiling is done with fine stones. 600 grit diamond or fine side of an SIC or India. I get a sharp, almost completely burr free apex with one stone then strop. This usually gets my edge to almost tree topping. It is just a little short of that sharpness measure. I haven't yet needed more. Except that the India is to coarse for this to work. The Green Brick of Joy + 1000 grit Naniwa sound nice but I am looking for more a more multi purpose stone. I changed my criteria and that was my bad, sorry!
Martin, our kitchen knives get treated like a rented mule. Beaten until they give and then beaten some more. I do the best I can on them. They give me great practice! I have and occasionally use one of the grooved steels you dislike. I don't and wouldn't use it on a good knife. It is ok for beater knives if you strop after you raise a burr with it. Miles better than cutting with a dull knife. And it doesn't destroy the edge like a pull through would.
Chris, I had a gouge that was giving me fits because the apex was chipping out in large chunks on the India. I used a 1200 grit diamond stone with slightly modified technique and got it carving last night. Needs some more work but it is miles better than it came out of the box.
I wonder what you guys would say if you saw me sharpening my woodworking tools right now. I would probably get thrown out of M,T & E!
Jason, I don't sharpen like you or most of the guys on here. All of my reprofiling is done with fine stones. 600 grit diamond or fine side of an SIC or India. I get a sharp, almost completely burr free apex with one stone then strop. This usually gets my edge to almost tree topping. It is just a little short of that sharpness measure. I haven't yet needed more. Except that the India is to coarse for this to work. The Green Brick of Joy + 1000 grit Naniwa sound nice but I am looking for more a more multi purpose stone. I changed my criteria and that was my bad, sorry!
Martin, our kitchen knives get treated like a rented mule. Beaten until they give and then beaten some more. I do the best I can on them. They give me great practice! I have and occasionally use one of the grooved steels you dislike. I don't and wouldn't use it on a good knife. It is ok for beater knives if you strop after you raise a burr with it. Miles better than cutting with a dull knife. And it doesn't destroy the edge like a pull through would.
Chris, I had a gouge that was giving me fits because the apex was chipping out in large chunks on the India. I used a 1200 grit diamond stone with slightly modified technique and got it carving last night. Needs some more work but it is miles better than it came out of the box.
I wonder what you guys would say if you saw me sharpening my woodworking tools right now. I would probably get thrown out of M,T & E!
- Joined
- Apr 12, 2009
- Messages
- 13,443
Chris "Anagarika";14444933 said:Following David (OWE) advice that DMT F-EEF can be used for softer steel, I use DMT Extra Fine (1200) for my wife's Victorinox paring and she likes it better than when I use EEF (8000).
Finished with extra extra light edge leading (no burr). Strop on jeans (no compound) just to clean the remnants if any.
It's important to maintain my wife's happiness regarding the knives
For woodworking, I have no idea.
I think you've found the secret for those. :thumbup:
On the Victorinox knives, I've lately been having fun trying them at even coarser finish. A while back, I'd picked up a 3-piece 'Little Vickie' paring knife set (two plain-edged knives, one slightly larger than the other, and a serrated one). They're inexpensive; about $22 for the set, if I recall, and fun to experiment with. The key is very, very light pressure when touching up on more aggressive abrasives like SiC or diamond, which leaves the burrs pretty minimal, even with the softish steel. I've tweaked them using the Fine side of a SiC stone (~320 or so), a 'Fine (600) DMT, and a couple of diamond rods (both EZE-Lap; one's an older brass-handled pocket hone, the other is a newer oval 10" rod), which are both a bit coarser than the Fine DMT. Great way to get an instant '3-finger sticky' edge on these blades, and they still go through phonebook pages like a laserbeam. I lightly strop the edges on plain leather, or sometimes a handful of passes on a denim strop with white rouge compound. I'm liking the Victorinox steel better & better, simply because it responds nicely to most any sharpener used with a feather-light touch. Still pretty soft, and they do need fairly regular touching up; but they are FUN to use when sharpened with that light touch.
David
Last edited:
You could always go back to your original idea and get a soft arkansas and a nice translucent. The soft Arkansas would be a nice transition from your India stone and the translucent would be your finishing stone. These two would fill in your gaps for your pocket knives, kitchen cutlery, and your chisels.
Chris
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2007
- Messages
- 11,191
If you want stone recommendations for razor sharpening its going to be different than chisels and knives. You can get a base set of stones but for speciality tasks like razor sharpening it will need it's own routine. Chisels sharpen a little easier on harder stones but I have used the GB to great effect on chisels and plane blades.
After some thought I still recommend the same stones, below is a plane blade finished on the GB.
After some thought I still recommend the same stones, below is a plane blade finished on the GB.
No, I am not looking for recommendations for razor stones in this thread. I muddied up the water but you gave me the answers I needed. I am only concerned with knives and woodworking tools right now. So you still recommend the Naniwa 1000 traditional and the Green Brick of Joy? (I have to admit, I like the nickname.) I guess you haven't sharpened a gouge or V tool on it have you?
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2007
- Messages
- 11,191
Haven't sharpened a gouge sense high school and not sure what a V tool is. I have however sharpened pretty much anything else you can imagine on the GB, it being softer only means you will need to do more edge trailing strokes instead of edge leading.
I could probably get a way with having both the arkasas stones and the Naniwa 1000/Green Brick. I have googled for "Arkansas Stone" but how do I know if the ones I find are good? These aren't manmade stones after all. Should I look for a hard black or a translucent black?
Jason, couldn't I try the Naniwa 1000 first then then get the Green Brick later if I like the 1000? The 1000 you recommended is out of the Traditional series. What is it like? Hard, soft? I guess it is for softer steels IE. 1095, 01 and 154cm. I am learning a lot about water stones, thank you!
I have stones from several different vendors and I have never gotten a bad Norton stone. Halls Pro Edge sells some very good stones as well. I have Arkansas stones from a few different vendors other than these and they are not up to par with the two I have mentioned. All of my Norton stones are 8"x3"x1/2" stones while some of my others are slightly smaller at 8"x2".
I have both the translucent and hard black varieties but I mentioned translucent because it seems to me (and several others I have read from) at least that the translucent's seem to be more consistent across vendors than the black's. It is my experience that the black's vary more from vendor to vendor...other's experience may be different. My favorite hard black is slightly finer than any other stone I have, but my Norton translucent is certainly no slouch either.
As far as the translucent blacks, I think it is just another color variation of the black Arkansas, however I don't have one. Black's range from greyish black to bluish black to jet black. My favorite one is jet black...think of getting in the closet and turning off the lights black.
Best of luck with whatever you choose as we all have our individual preferences.
Chris
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2007
- Messages
- 11,191
Yes, and for most new sharpeners (or new to waterstones) a 1k stone IS your starting point and you build from there. Most any 1k waterstone is going to get the job done but if you have specific needs you can pick a stone or stone sets tailored to the sharpening you do.
The 1k Naniwa traditional stone is like most other red brick 1k stones, it will be about the same cuttng speed as your India but yield a finer scratch pattern. It will wear and dish quicker than harder stones like Shapton but the common red 1k stone is the India stone of waterstones. If you go to a hardware in Japan it would be the stone most commonly found.
Basically, no matter what you plan to sharpen this 1k stone could be recommended to do it, just like the India or Cryslolon stones so often recommended in the USA.
To better direct you to a stone purchase answer the following.
What is your budget for a single 1k stone (just to get you started)?
do you sharpen wood working tools more often than knives?
I just realized that a translucent is too fine for what I want. I started this thread needing a stepping stone, no pun intended, between my Norton India/Crystolon and my medium, fine and ultra fine Spyderco Ceramics. I thought one stone would catch every thing.
I now know that I have three needs:
1. A general stone for soft steels IE 1095, O1 or AUS 8. A soft Arkasas, maybe backed up by a hard Arkasas.
2. The stepping stone to the ceramics for steels like 440c, 154cm and VG 10.
3. A stone or stones for my woodworking tools. Most of these will be softer steels but I will probably want a harder stone. I have the ceramics for finishing them.
I am leaving out vandium rich steels because, well, I don't own a wide variety. D2 is the only steel I have more than 2 knives in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Y4Cfsfhobs This oversimplified video might help you under stand what a V tool is. It would probably need a harder stone like a chisel.
So the 1k stone is the cornerstone of a waterstone sharpeners arsenal. I am not quite sure whether I will be sharpening carving tools or knives more often. It will probably be 50-50 right down the middle.
Budget for a single stone? I am not going to pay over $100. I see that a Shapton Professional 1000 runs about $60. Anything around or under that would be fine if it can do any two on the list. I don't think I will find a stone to do all three. If it will only do one part of list, it would need to be less. Crazy requirements I know. I may end up having to get three or more different stones to do all of what I want.
Jason B.
Knifemaker / Craftsman / Service Provider
- Joined
- Jun 13, 2007
- Messages
- 11,191
That helps a lot,
The Shapton pro are very nice for chisels as are the Chosera/Naniwa Professional stones. It makes it a tough choice because all of them are premium stones. Argued among professionals as to which set is better, and I, a owner of both sets has difficulties deciding which I like more.
As an all inclusive stone that covers the most bases its probably tough to top the Shapton Pro 1500. By itself can be a finishing stone for softer carbon and stainless steels yielding a fine toothy cutting edge that's easily stropped to much higher levels of sharpness if needed. This stone favors carbon steels and tends to clog slightly with stainless.
The 1k Shapton Pro is more like an 800 grit stone and is easily one of the fastest 1k-ish stones I have used. It also stays very flat and wears slooooooooow, though don't get behind in lapping or you will hate life. If you want a powerful 1k this is it. This stone will handle most any steel.
Naniwa Pro/Chosera, if you ever find Zen while sharpening it will likely be with these stones. Plays well with carbon and stainless, better choice on softer steels too. It's tough to swallow the price point of these stones but you will never regret the purchase.
The Shapton pro are very nice for chisels as are the Chosera/Naniwa Professional stones. It makes it a tough choice because all of them are premium stones. Argued among professionals as to which set is better, and I, a owner of both sets has difficulties deciding which I like more.
As an all inclusive stone that covers the most bases its probably tough to top the Shapton Pro 1500. By itself can be a finishing stone for softer carbon and stainless steels yielding a fine toothy cutting edge that's easily stropped to much higher levels of sharpness if needed. This stone favors carbon steels and tends to clog slightly with stainless.
The 1k Shapton Pro is more like an 800 grit stone and is easily one of the fastest 1k-ish stones I have used. It also stays very flat and wears slooooooooow, though don't get behind in lapping or you will hate life. If you want a powerful 1k this is it. This stone will handle most any steel.
Naniwa Pro/Chosera, if you ever find Zen while sharpening it will likely be with these stones. Plays well with carbon and stainless, better choice on softer steels too. It's tough to swallow the price point of these stones but you will never regret the purchase.