I seek advice on 52100 Heat-treatment

A

Alan Molstad

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Kevin Davey said:
I am currently soaking 52100 for 10 mins at 1550F in a digital oven ..should I extend this?
Click to expand...



Now that you guys have introduced 52100...
Up to this point I have always just stuck to forging car and truck springs. The advice I got from this forum was to stick to a easy steel with the tools that I have.

However I got some 1&1/4 inch ball bearings and I have my first knife cooling in the forge as I write this to you.
Now after I finish the work with the belt grinder before the heat-treatment, I need to have a plan for how to do the HT.

My tools-
gas forge
O/A torch
Quench tank with 2 gal of Texaco type "A" quenching oil.
Some of the clay used to make a hamon on my katana blades
and a Kitchen oven

What should I do?
How should I heat and quench the 52100 blade?
What type of tool that I own should I use?
How should I temper it?
--------------------------------

THE BACKGROUND:
mY 5160 steel blades were aimed at being a knife for outdoor heavy use.
They are hunting blades but also used on jobsites and an Everday carry knife

This new 52100 blade is also aimed at being a blade for field use.
I want it to have an edge that stays sharp a long time.
Im not all that interested anymore in a blade that can bend...(after 3 years of seeking to make blades out of 5160 that can pass the 90deg flex test I have never yet ran into a situation where I needed a knife that can take such a bend. I use my 5160 blade at my work all the time in hard situations, and have never thought that I was 'lucky" I had a knife that can bend)

I would like a nice hamon line, therefore I was thinking of a clay-coated spine.

MY IDEA SO FAR;
#1 - Is to clay coat the spine/tang of the blade to slow cooling in that area in an attempt to get a nice hamon line.

#2 - Heat whole blade in gas forge until non-magnetic

#3 - quench whole blade all at once ,in oil. (oil pre-heated to 160)

#4 - before blade is fully cool to touch, place in kitchen oven at 300 for one hour.

#5 - cool fully to room temp in oven, then heat once again to 300 for full hour.


Will this work?...what should I do different?
 
Alan Molstad said:
Now that you guys have introduced 52100...
Up to this point I have always just stuck to forging car and truck springs. The advice I got from this forum was to stick to a easy steel with the tools that I have.

However I got some 1&1/4 inch ball bearings and I have my first knife cooling in the forge as I write this to you.
Now after I finish the work with the belt grinder before the heat-treatment, I need to have a plan for how to do the HT.

My tools-
gas forge
O/A torch
Quench tank with 2 gal of Texaco type "A" quenching oil.
Some of the clay used to make a hamon on my katana blades


and a Kitchen oven

What should I do?
How should I heat and quench the 52100 blade?
What type of tool that I own should I use?
How should I temper it?
--------------------------------

THE BACKGROUND:
mY 5160 steel blades were aimed at being a knife for outdoor heavy use.
They are hunting blades but also used on jobsites and an Everday carry knife

This new 52100 blade is also aimed at being a blade for field use.
I want it to have an edge that stays sharp a long time.
Im not all that interested anymore in a blade that can bend...(after 3 years of seeking to make blades out of 5160 that can pass the 90deg flex test I have never yet ran into a situation where I needed a knife that can take such a bend. I use my 5160 blade at my work all the time in hard situations, and have never thought that I was 'lucky" I had a knife that can bend)

I would like a nice hamon line, therefore I was thinking of a clay-coated spine.

MY IDEA SO FAR;
#1 - Is to clay coat the spine/tang of the blade to slow cooling in that area in an attempt to get a nice hamon line.

#2 - Heat whole blade in gas forge until non-magnetic

#3 - quench whole blade all at once ,in oil. (oil pre-heated to 160)

#4 - before blade is fully cool to touch, place in kitchen oven at 300 for one hour.

#5 - cool fully to room temp in oven, then heat once again to 300 for full hour.


Will this work?...what should I do different?
Click to expand...

Allan,
The 52100 you have chosen does not make for a nice hamon like many of the less complex steels. The surface does not finish out as "clean" as some steels.

52100 needs soak time at the upper part of the transformation range to get the alloys into play. Otherwise you get no benifit from there presence in the steel.

You need longer and multiple tempering cycles for 52100 in the 375 to 400 degree range. Check your heat treat manual on these temps. I don't have mine in front of me.

If you don't have access to a programable oven or salt pot 52100 can be hard to heat treat and get all there is to get out of it.

This is not meant to discourage you only to say that working with the more complex steels is more demanding than using more basic steels.

If you are not getting your bearings from a source that can vouch for what they are made of [52100?] Check them out yourself by forging a tang, harden it, place in a vice, it should snap like glass with little force if it is 52100.

Look into using W-2 steel if you enjoy nice hamons. Its makes a fine knife and heat treats well.

I built a digitaly controlled oven this year and have been processing some 52100 roller bearings.

Good luck, Fred
 
Alan Molstad said:
My tools-
gas forge
O/A torch
Quench tank with 2 gal of Texaco type "A" quenching oil.
Some of the clay used to make a hamon on my katana blades
and a Kitchen oven
Click to expand...

With the tools listed here....what are my steps?

I know that there are likely all kinds of different ways to use all kinds of different tools that I dont own. But with just the tools that I have on hand TODAY , what should I do?
 
Fred.Rowe said:
Allan,

52100 needs soak time at the upper part of the transformation range to get the alloys into play. ....

You need longer and multiple tempering cycles for 52100 in the 375 to 400 degree range.
Click to expand...

Given the tools that I own today, and the fact that I must do the Heat-treatments "today".. (this very afternoon)

From what you are saying -
I should keep the knife inside the forge while at "quenching temp" for a longer time before the quench right?
How long?

and, you think I should temper in the kitchen oven at 400 for 3 times?
 
In all honesty Alan, you've picked a complicated steel to work with. You may be able to get decent performance with a more simple heat treat, but you will never get close to the potential of the steel. If I'm not mistaken, Ed Fowler takes something like 9 DAYS to HT a single 52100 blade due to all of the different operations that must be repeated, etc to get the full potential out of the steel.

Not trying to rain on your parade, just trying to point out that 52100 isn't nearly as simple to deal with as more simple steels like 5160/10xx, etc.

-d
 
Given the tools that I have, right now, this moment...

AND that fact that later "TODAY" I have to do a heat-treatment of this blade....

what do I do?
 
Just triple quench it. Mr Fowler takes 9 days to heat treat because he likes to keep his blades in the freezer overnight multiple times. Skip that part, and you can do it all in one day.
Note: I still believe in soaking, but given your limited tools, triple quenching may be best.
I think you can forget about clay quenching for a hamon with 52100...
 
Phillip Patton said:
Just triple quench it. .
Click to expand...

O/A torch, just the cutting edge, or should I use the forge,heat the whole blade, and quench the whole blade?

I know some guys like to use a O/A torch and heat just the cutting edge to keep the spine cool and dead soft so that the knife can bend, but others suggest that is a pointless thing to worry about...what should I do?

I was just going to use the forge and heat the whole blade,
BUT, I think I need to use clay to slow the cooling of the tang so that it does not get hard ......right?


If I clay coat the spine and tang areas, heat the whole knife in the forge, and quench the full blade all at once, will I be able to keep the tang from getting hard as I plan?

or,

Is my idea just another pointless thing to do to 52100 ?
 
Phillip Patton said:
Just triple quench it. Mr Fowler takes 9 days to heat treat because he likes to keep his blades in the freezer overnight multiple times. Skip that part, and you can do it all in one day.
Note: I still believe in soaking, but given your limited tools, triple quenching may be best.
I think you can forget about clay quenching for a hamon with 52100...
Click to expand...


Phillip, I wish to say "Thanks" for the advice....I am about to go do as you suggest.

I have been thinking, and I cant find a way to use my forge the way I talked about.
It just seems that Im not going to be able to control how hard the tang/spine get if I heated and quenched the whole blade.
I dont want my tang hard as I once had a knife snap on me at the tang...

Therefor, Im going to need to do something sorta close to the Ed Fowler system for this 52100 knife....and hope for the best...

I will do 3 different Heat/quench thingys....
But I just dont have the time to do one every 24 hours as Fowler suggests.
Im up against a deadline here...I have to have this knife finished, sheath made and everything by the weekend.
So Im going to do 3 Heat-quenches, 'bang-bang-bang" , and hope this works out.

Im not sure doing 3 different quenches is really helpfull,,,
From what I have read on this forum on a few topics, I just dont believe that doing 3 is that much better than doing 1 , if you do that 1 the right way the first time.

But, well,,,if nothing else, by the time I finish my 3rd heat-quenching I will be good at doing them, so perhaps thats all that counts anyway?

wish me luck
Alan.
 
Alan Molstad said:
Phillip, I wish to say "Thanks" for the advice....I am about to go do as you suggest.

Im not sure doing 3 different quenches is really helpfull,,,
From what I have read on this forum on a few topics, I just dont believe that doing 3 is that much better than doing 1 , if you do that 1 the right way the first time.

But, well,,,if nothing else, by the time I finish my 3rd heat-quenching I will be good at doing them, so perhaps thats all that counts anyway?

wish me luck
Alan.
Click to expand...

Your welcome, Alan. I hope it works out for you.
I think in instances where you can't do a proper soak, 3 quenches is going to be better than 1. The idea is to bring as much of the alloys (especially carbon) into solution. I don't see how waiting 24 hours in between quenches will help that...
 
HOLY SMOKES.....doing 3 quenches like that sure makes the shop fill up with smoke!

But I finished the last quenching and ran the still hot blade into the pre-heated kitchen oven.

The temp of the oven is at 400....as near as I can tell that temp is what most people have suggested to me to try.

I will have it in the oven for the next 2 hours, and then allow to cool fully...then do two more of the same type of temperings....

any suggestions?
 
On a side note....
I noticed that on this 52100 blade that after the last quench there was still no scale on the sides of the blade to speak of.

Now my normal steel (5160) always has a lot of scale on the sides after even one quenching...this was fun to see a very real difference between steels out of the quench.
 
Hello Alan: I could very easily spend several hours typing, but Guess What?
Rex and I made a DVD about the subject, what we have learned in the past 10 years or so. All explained and backed up by Rex in his lab. Jeremy and I decided to price it low so none could not afford it. $25.00 includes shipping.
There are no secrets held back, just honest information for those who want to develop true field knives. If you can't utilize all the information in the DVD, you will know how to tell what and how much each step contributes.
email or call me and one will be on the way to you.
 
Hi Ed this is Alan Molstad.

I believe I could REALLY use the help your DVD could give me.

Thank you so much for this offer.
I will try to email you...
 
Reading through this thread I see a lot of desire on the part of those who have responded.

One thing we found is that using the 5160 that Dan Gray sells from John Deer specks will breathe right down to the finish line when compared to 52100 using the techniques we use on the 52100.

When you mention that there is no scale on the blades after you harden, this is one symptom of fine grain. Do the same thing with a blade that is stock removal only and the scale will stick on the blade.

This does not mean that you can not get some nice fine grain out of 5160 without forging, just a statement about a symptom of fine grain.
 
(Ed , I sent you an email from the address off your website.)

I got a bucket of Ball bearings, however they are a little small (Each about the size of a golf ball)

I took some video of my wife and I forging one of them down to the shape of a knife.
I will post it on YouTube this weekend...it's kinda funny to see me and her learning how to do this on the fly.
I had to use a full size sledgehammer and nearly threw out my arm doing it, but I got 'er done!
 
WE have all been there, well remembered as the good old days. My first power hammer was a 14 pound double jack with a 14 inch steel axle welded to the head. I could get around 20 hits a minute. The kids turned a hand crank forge, and wore out about the same time I did. I had to corral them before I fired up the forge or they were gone for the day.

I made a lot of knives from that size ball bearings, they do well!

My sincere advice, as long as you and your bride work together you will know the best of times, keep it alive!!

Good Luck
 
On a side note Alan. You asked about using clay to controll the hardness of the tang and to get a nice temper line. Because 52100 will air harden enough that it take a good cobalt drill to get a hole in it clay will not retard cooling enough to keep the steel under the clay from hardening or to create a temper line.
 
The reason I had the hope of useing my forge to heat for the quench (and not the O/A torch), is that when I use the torch Im so busy....very busy,

I got the torch in one hand burning, the other hand is attempting to handle hot steel and dunk it into hot oil,,,thats a lot to do and keep track of in the dark sometimes...

and the whole O/A torch thing , it comes down to a judgement call as to if it's ready to quench or not, and there is always the problem of not being even with the heat along the cutting edge.

My hope was that if I could use the forge, that things would go slower, I could watch with a bit more care, I would not be so busy , my hands would not be so busy, and that the blade would come up to temp very even.

However as I dont want a hard tang, I thought of the clay I used with a 1050 katana I made. The clay seemed to slow the cooling well enough on the sword.

However, you are correct, I just didnt trust that the clay would work, so I dropped that idea for a while.

It would have been great if it would turn out to work however. I could then control where the hard and soft points of the blade start and stop by jusy painting them with clay.....ahh to dream.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzJ-91nUhPA

This is a link to YouTube where I have posted a short, low quality, video clip of my attempt to forge this first 52100 ball bearing into a knife.

The video shows my wife bringing the hot steel out of the forge and holding it steady for me as I hit it with the BIGGEST hammer I own!

I am more used to working with John Deere LoaControl shafts, and with them I am able to work them down to shape without help.

However after 2 attempts to do this by myself I had to go into the house and get my wife to help out.
The Ball Bearing has to be about 4 times as hard as the JD steel, and it was way, way slower to move under the hammer.

The only way I was able to get the steel to move is to heat it to yellow, and then SMACK it with the biggest hammer in my shop.
The Video clip represents only a very short moment in one very long afternoon of work.
 
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