I think I did something wrong. 154cm + 400 grit diamond + wood = super sharp???

S

Squashfan

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Jun 6, 2012
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I am working on a Benchmade Nitrous Blitz and have just finished the 400 grit diamond stone. This was the first stone. After the 400 grit I tried to deburr on a piece of hard (literally) wood before the next stone. I DID NOT completely eliminate the burr or go to a finer stone but now this knife is as sharp as almost any other knife I have sharpened. I am being totally, dead serious. This is not a joke. I really don't think that the knife should be this sharp so soon and I am afraid that some thing is off. AM I DOING SOMETHING WRONG???
 
( If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... it's definitely a duck! ) :D

Kidding, BTW. But if it's sharp, it's sharp.

Sounds like the work you did on the 400 grit stone was good, and there's likely less burr left than you're assuming. The cutting never lies. You might do some more test-cutting, to see how durable the edge is. If there was a significant burr or wire edge, it'll likely fold and create snagging issues or otherwise make cutting performance fall off a bit. If it continues to be 'sharp', then you know you've done it right. :thumbup:


David
 
Squashfan said:
I am working on a Benchmade Nitrous Blitz and have just finished the 400 grit diamond stone. This was the first stone. After the 400 grit I tried to deburr on a piece of hard (literally) wood before the next stone. I DID NOT completely eliminate the burr or go to a finer stone but now this knife is as sharp as almost any other knife I have sharpened. I am being totally, dead serious. This is not a joke. I really don't think that the knife should be this sharp so soon and I am afraid that some thing is off. AM I DOING SOMETHING WRONG???
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Maybe you should be doing all your knives that way. :D
 
Did a cut test on single ply cardboard, think really thick card stock. The edge rolled after four cuts. :( I checked the edge before the test and realized that OwE was right, there was very little burr on most of the edge.

I am going to deburr the edge again before going to the next stone. I will try wood but I suspect it won't do the job. Should I go back to the 400 grit diamond or just deburr it on the 600 grit diamond before I start sharpening with the 600 grit? I also have a (IIRC) alum oxide dual grit stone and I have thought about deburring on the fine side of it.
 
I don't know if this is right, but this is what I do; If I feel a fine burr that is formed, and it just folds back and forth, I'll see which side it's on, and give it a good swipe, at a steeper angle. This usually cuts the burr off, and I can proceed with ease. YMMV

Edit: I do this, after I have made it very thin, but it stubbornly won't come off.
 
Squashfan said:
Did a cut test on single ply cardboard, think really thick card stock. The edge rolled after four cuts. :( I checked the edge before the test and realized that OwE was right, there was very little burr on most of the edge.

I am going to deburr the edge again before going to the next stone. I will try wood but I suspect it won't do the job. Should I go back to the 400 grit diamond or just deburr it on the 600 grit diamond before I start sharpening with the 600 grit? I also have a (IIRC) alum oxide dual grit stone and I have thought about deburring on the fine side of it.
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I think minimizing the burr as much as possible on the stones is going to be more reliable than the wood. Sometimes wood can work, but usually only if the burrs are already pretty delicate. Bigger and thicker burrs, especially on fairly ductile steels (420HC & VG-10 at slightly lower hardness, for example), usually won't be fazed by cutting into wood.

As to which stone you choose to de-burr with, that's up to you. You might start with the least aggressive stone initially; that'll help minimize the potential for over-grinding the edge in removing the burr. Down the road, I'd generally keep a very close eye on burr formation, as you work on each stone in sequence. The earlier you can spot it, the smaller they'll be and the easier it'll be to clean them up.


David
 
SquashFan,
Try using a wide strip of that thick cardboard to deburr instead of the wood. Spine leading trail strokes.

The cardboard has clay in it and will remove the burr.

Laurence
 
I do all deburring on the stones. I don't drag the edge through or across wood or anything else anymore, and I haven't done that for a long time. I usually work up a burr on both sides and then gradually reduce the burr with increasingly lighter strokes with increasingly frequent alternation, checking often, until I'm doing feather-light, one-to-one alternating strokes. When that's done, I switch to edge-trailing for some light back honing. If your technique is right, you will knock the burr off very cleanly. Following up with stropping seals the deal.

It depends on the stones you are using. If you are finishing with a very high grit finishing water stone, back honing (edge trailing) is key to finishing the edge, and then you can go straight from your stone (which, with the above process, will leave almost zero burr) to newsprint, plain leather, or denim and have a laser clean edge. If you are using diamonds, it gets trickier. I sometimes finish with back honing with diamonds. I often do not. The higher the grit, the more likely you are to succeed.

Final grit is important, too. If your final stone is fairly course, even if you are a pimp at deburring, it really benefits from a loaded strop.
 
I will start at the finest stone, in the case an alum oxide, and work up.

I have tried two new things while working on this edge. Before when I was freehanding and if the burr wouldn't turn I would use more pressure. This time I am using more strokes to turn the burr. Also, I used to sharpen while seated and worked almost level with me chest. Now I am working off of a high stool that makes the stone level with my stomach. I have much better reach and I think that this is helping me.

I stropped my PM2 with cardboard earlier this week. It really helped a failing edge get through the day. I almost walked out the door without a knife because I was in a hurry and grabbed the PM2 even though the edge was rolled.
 
Squashfan said:
I will start at the finest stone, in the case an alum oxide, and work up.

I have tried two new things while working on this edge. Before when I was freehanding and if the burr wouldn't turn I would use more pressure. This time I am using more strokes to turn the burr. Also, I used to sharpen while seated and worked almost level with me chest. Now I am working off of a high stool that makes the stone level with my stomach. I have much better reach and I think that this is helping me.

I stropped my PM2 with cardboard earlier this week. It really helped a failing edge get through the day. I almost walked out the door without a knife because I was in a hurry and grabbed the PM2 even though the edge was rolled.
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The best anti-burr tip I can give you - push the entire thing over so its standing high on the side you work best - whichever side you have better mechanical control. Then backdrag the edge along a piece of wood at a fairly steep angle - use light pressure unless the burr is a lunker. If its real small, use very light pressure. The goal is to make it stand out even more at a greater angle on that same side. Then put it to the stone and work it off with very light pressure, edge leading, short strokes, same angle you were grinding at. The goal is to use enough pressure to abrade it away without using so much pressure it flips. If it flips, do the same thing on the other side. Check your progress often, you want to catch the edge at the moment the burr disintegrates, but before you inadvertently start creating a new one (however small) - there will be a grace period, but not long depending on pressure, steel etc. Stropping on cardboard or newspaper at this point will reveal any remaining burr, or just give you a nice little additional polish. Then go on the loaded strop etc, or call it a day.

HH
 
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Squashfan said:
I will start at the finest stone, in the case an alum oxide, and work up.

I have tried two new things while working on this edge. Before when I was freehanding and if the burr wouldn't turn I would use more pressure. This time I am using more strokes to turn the burr. Also, I used to sharpen while seated and worked almost level with me chest. Now I am working off of a high stool that makes the stone level with my stomach. I have much better reach and I think that this is helping me.

I stropped my PM2 with cardboard earlier this week. It really helped a failing edge get through the day. I almost walked out the door without a knife because I was in a hurry and grabbed the PM2 even though the edge was rolled.
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Yeah, definitely decrease pressure, in any case. I'm a big believer that pressure creates most burrs in the first place, and heavy pressure just makes them bigger.

It's good that you're looking for and finding new approaches to streamline the process and improve results. My own methods are somewhat unorthodox, as I usually work with hones and strops that can be held in one hand, while handling the blade with the other. I don't actually work from the surface of a table or bench that often anyway. My own approach allows me to look more directly at the edge when it's in contact with the hone/strop, and I also hold the hone/strop in a somewhat vertical/diagonal position (think of how the Sharpmaker's rods are oriented), so the direction of the stroke is either 'up' or 'down', instead of 'toward' or 'away' from me. I've also noticed it really helps me regulate pressure this way, as most of the force exerted isn't directly perpendicular to the blade edge, or down into a bench/table.

It comes down to what you can train your hands to do best, and finding what's 'comfortable' for your hands is very important. Much easier to stay consistent, when you're comfortable.


David
 
Deburred on the fine side of the alum oxide stone. Then worked with the 600 grit diamond and stropped on 6 micron diamond paste with a wood backing. Very sharp but the diamond paste is too fine to get a good working edge off of. I am going to sharpen the blade with the fine side of the alum oxide stone before moving to the 1200 grit diamond. Hopefully, this will be enough for the 6 micron paste to work with.

I hope this knife stays sharp for a good long time. I have spent about 3 hours on it so far.

EDIT:Strike the part about the alum oxide stone before the diamond. It will have to be the other way 'round. I also found out I can't work when there is a movie on. Nothing terrible, just couldn't quite get in the zone of me, the knife and the stone with all that noise.
 
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Squashfan said:
Deburred on the fine side of the alum oxide stone. Then worked with the 600 grit diamond and stropped on 6 micron diamond paste with a wood backing. Very sharp but the diamond paste is too fine to get a good working edge off of. I am going to sharpen the blade with the fine side of the alum oxide stone before moving to the 1200 grit diamond. Hopefully, this will be enough for the 6 micron paste to work with.

I hope this knife stays sharp for a good long time. I have spent about 3 hours on it so far.

EDIT:Strike the part about the alum oxide stone before the diamond. It will have to be the other way 'round. I also found out I can't work when there is a movie on. Nothing terrible, just couldn't quite get in the zone of me, the knife and the stone with all that noise.
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You might be going in too many directions, too many changes of abrasive media.

Unsolicited, but I'd just quietly start with the coarse side of the aluminum oxide stone, assuming it grinds the steel well. Make a fresh apex, deburr a bit - very workmanlike - raise burr/flip/eliminate- nothing obsessive but reduce it without making it too much of a deal. Then move on to the fine side of the aluminum oxide stone. Raise a burr, flip it, grind it into oblivion as best you can. Strop on newspaper to make sure the burr is gone or very small - don't fret it, just part of the process. Go back to the stone for a few light passes if needed. Strop a handful of times on the 6u diamond paste and check. Don't get dragged into a micro process of many steps when you're looking to make a solid user's edge. Done well, the alum ox stone and newspaper strop will give you a real nice edge - finish with some diamond paste and it should be a very good edge.
Stropping on wood is going to require some extra attention and a real clean edge before you start. Its a whole other set of variables that will need to be managed, best done from a solid base.
 
I use wood all the time as my last step..........it's kind of magical.

I'm not a sharpening genius, nor do I put as much effort or thought into it as some here do, even in this thread..............

But I have found that after I have used stones to grind a new edge, then strop, drawing through the end grain of a board does wonders for me.

There might be better ways to do it, but I'm happy with the results I get and my blades stay sharp enough long enough for my uses.
 
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It is nice to have knowledgeable people giving me advice. I can't claim any knowledge of sharpening, almost all of what I know has come from the forums. I will keep your suggestions in mind, HH, as I finish this blade.

This is going to be the first free hand edge that I am happy with. I have tried several new techniques and they have given good results. Other tests, such as the alum oxide fine side before the 1200 grit diamond, didn't work so well. However, the alum oxide stone would still yield a nice edge. I did try the fine side and it did not cut the steel as well as my 1200 grit diamond.

So far all I have done is the 400, 600, and 1200 grit diamond stones. What has happened is that I am spending about 30-45 minutes per stone just to make sure that I am getting the burr off and the bevel flat. A lot of that time is spent using edge leading strokes to file off the burr.
 
Magnaminous_G said:
Yo, deburr me, dawg.
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Hah!!!

Yo, dawg, I head you like to deburr so I put a stone on your stone so you could deburr while you deburr!

I couldn't resist!

Seriously, I am playing with the 1200 grit but so far I haven't gotten the knife as sharp as I would like. I don't think I am quite there with my angle control. Will do some more work with it tonight and report back
 
What? That joke wasn't that bad, was it? *crickets*

Anyway, I finished the blade. I couldn't get the scratch pattern down with just the 1200 grit stone and my 6 micron paste on wood. The edge I had was toothy, very toothy. I had to go to 1000 and 2000 grit sandpaper. It is very sharp now but I am not pleased that I had to resort to the sandpaper. I also did not have an even bevel when I finished. I am unsure what happened with either the bevel or the finish. It maybe that diamond is too aggressive for final finishing of 154cm. I think I am going to try the alum oxide stone next time I sharpen this knife. I have been thinking about getting the three ceramic stones that Spyderco makes. I may go that route before to long.

There was one other thing about the bevel. On the medium and fine stones, I started by sharpening with a circular motion to flatten the bevel. After the bevel was flat, I would move on to a back and forth motion. One stroke edge leading from the heal to tip and then edge trailing from the tip to the heel. Finishing with edge leading strokes only.

I omitted the circular motion stage on the 1200 grit stone because I thought that the bevel would be flat enough. I guess I was wrong.
 
Squashfan said:
What? That joke wasn't that bad, was it? *crickets*

Anyway, I finished the blade. I couldn't get the scratch pattern down with just the 1200 grit stone and my 6 micron paste on wood. The edge I had was toothy, very toothy. I had to go to 1000 and 2000 grit sandpaper. It is very sharp now but I am not pleased that I had to resort to the sandpaper. I also did not have an even bevel when I finished. I am unsure what happened with either the bevel or the finish. It maybe that diamond is too aggressive for final finishing of 154cm. I think I am going to try the alum oxide stone next time I sharpen this knife. I have been thinking about getting the three ceramic stones that Spyderco makes. I may go that route before to long.

There was one other thing about the bevel. On the medium and fine stones, I started by sharpening with a circular motion to flatten the bevel. After the bevel was flat, I would move on to a back and forth motion. One stroke edge leading from the heal to tip and then edge trailing from the tip to the heel. Finishing with edge leading strokes only.

I omitted the circular motion stage on the 1200 grit stone because I thought that the bevel would be flat enough. I guess I was wrong.
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Hey, that's progress. :thumbup:

I know you probably don't want to hear this now, but don't ever fret over something that works. There's a valuable lesson in that, and no argument for 'it is very sharp now'. The cutting never lies, and discovering a noticeable improvement in sharpness is always the best-possible feedback.

Wet/dry sandpaper would likely be my finishing preference for this steel, if this knife were mine. I like using diamond hones for establishing the new bevels, but almost always do the refining with somewhat 'gentler' abrasives, appropriate to the steel. For most mid-range popular cutlery steels, like 154cm, the SiC or AlOx abrasives of wet/dry paper suit that very well. It is possible to over-do it with diamond on most steels anyway.

I'm not saying diamond can't work well or even excellently (it will). But there's nothing wrong in tailoring choice of abrasive to the particular steel, so the chances of over-grinding or over-polishing are minimized. The cosmetic issues of uneven bevels and such will be minimized down the road, as one becomes more comfortable with the tools and techniques. Focus on 'sharp' first, and the 'pretty' will eventually take care of itself. :)


David
 
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