I think I got the quench down OK, but now the temper is screwing me up.

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May 28, 2013
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I figured out how to heat the oil up to ~150 ºF (I estimated based on feeling really hot but not quite burning my finger). Next time I will use a thermometer, and start recording measurements and results in a journal. Anyway, I quenched two new blades and at least one of them hardened properly. Then I tried to temper in a toaster oven at 400 F. Then one took a good edge. Then after the second temper, neither would take a good edge.

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad:

Am I over tempering or under tempering or what??? Should spend the $60 and get 55, 60, and 65 HRC files?

I am not ready to go the PID route, so next time I'll use an oven thermometer and start the temper lower at like 325 and go up by 25 until I get a good edge. Does that sound right?
 
I'd check your hardness right after the quench before the temper. If you do this by a file on the edge, make sure to apply little pressure, and always file in the length of the blade, filing perpendicular might give cracks on the untempered martensite. It is wise to start tempering on the low side and raise the temper a bit at the second temper.
 
First, I believe it has been mentioned before that you should not be using 150F oil. 120-130F is the range desired. Frankly, I can't think of a sillier method of determining the temp than sticking your fingers in it. Use a thermometer. I forgot what HT method you used, but lets assume it was sufficient. Once the blade is cool enough to hold in your hands, use a file and file along the edge. The file should slide along like the knife was glass. It may bite in a bit the first stroke or two if you have a lot of decarb, but the steel under the skin should be screeching hard. If that was OK, then you temper the blade.

As to the temper, if you are around 400F, it should be fine as far as taking an edge. 325F would be too low. Any temper between 375 and 450 would still produce a good edge. Toaster ovens are really poor temper ovens. A kitchen oven is a far better choice. Maybe one of your friends will let you come over and use their mom's oven.


You said - "One took a good edge after the first temper, but both won't take a good edge after the second temper"??? Why are you sharpening between tempers? Are you doing a brass rod test? If you are cutting things , you need a better edge than just making a quick edge. How did you make the edge? What tests did you do?

I suggest you dull back any edges you have made and just finish the blades up by sanding them starting at 220 grit and going up the grits to 400 or higher. THEN, put a good edge on with a stone, strop it a couple times on something, and test the edge by cutting a bunch of cardboard. The first cuts can seem poor until you knock off the wire from sharpening. Once the wire is gone, suddenly it starts cutting very well. If the blades cut fine when finished, dull them back again and make the handles.
 
I am using a charcoal forge and canola oil quench in a 5 gallon bucket. I am also having a bit of trouble judging the temperature of 1475 ºF. The salt method works OK, but it still leaves much to judgement and thus error because hot steel cools pretty fast in room temperature air. Would one of those non contact infrared thermometers or some other method work better?

Why not sharpen between tempers? I might decide to increase the temper by 25ºF if the steel is too hard? Although I was probably way overheating it in the toaster oven... that was probably the problem.

I was sharpening with a norton combo stone and a leather strop with chromium (III) oxide compound.

Can you explain decarb to me and how do I know if I have it? Maybe that's why I can't tell if the steel is too hard or too soft or what. Maybe a standard file is enough? Would you recommend getting the three HRC files or no? (55, 60, 65)

Does anyone consider tapping a hanging blade to see how it rings a reliable test of hardness? (I'm guessing not, but can it be useful to qualitatively judge it? I know they make bouncing ball tests for HRC testing for test pieces over .5" thick (not a knife obviously))

I will be sure to get a normal thermometer and a cooking thermometer. I have access to a full size kitchen stove, so I will use that next time with my blades piled up in the middle of the middle rack, away from the heating elements.
 
I know I sound like a fussy old man, but you need to forget most of what you have read/say on YouTube and other internet sites and READ some time tested methodology.
The stickies, and the posts to you and other new makers always suggest using a magnet. Salt, IR thermometers, and such are not good methods. With a magnet and some practice you can nail a HT with a simple carbon steel dead on.



Here is a old post I made on the subjects in issue:

1080 is eutectoid steel - It has the simplest HT. You need to heat it evenly ( avoid overheating the edge) to 1500F and quench as soon as the blade is at that temperature. No need to soak ( hold at austinitization temp) for any length of time. Quench in fast oil, like parks #50,. Water or brine will work, but blades can crack or warp much more likely. Temper twice at 450F. This will give you a hard and tough blade.

Read Kevin Cashen's post in the stickys at the top of the page "Working with three steels". The entire process is explained.

My advise would be to avoid blends of old motor oil and ATF. It will work for many steels, but for shallow hardening steels, it may be less than optimal. Buying a gallon or two of proper quench oil will be a good investment.
1080,1084,1095, W1, W2 all need fast quench oil.
1070 and below often need water or brine to quench them.
O-1, L-6, 5160, S7, and other high alloy steels need a medium speed oil quench.
A-2. D-2,and stainless steels are air quenched, often using quench plates to avoid warping.

You will hear and read a lot of conflicting info about HT procedures. One advantage of 1080/1084 is that most all of those procedures will work for it. The one critical step is the quench. Assuming the steel is about the right temperature, the quench is where the austinite ( what forms above non-magnetic) converts into martensite ( what we want for a knife blade). Cooled too fast...it cracks or warps, cooled too slow...the blade is too soft or only partially hardened. Most blade steels between 1080 and W2 ( from .80% to 1.00% carbon) have only about one second to lower the steel temperature from 1500F to below 900F. That is what the words "fast", "medium", and "slow" mean in quench oil ratings.

As to using a magnet to determine the blade temperature....it is a good system. At about 1300F the steel changes from one structure to another. It looks the same, but the new structure is not magnetic. Checking the steel by using a magnet ( the cheap telescopic pick-up magnets work well) as the blade heats up will tell you when this change occurs. At this point it is not ready to quench ( even though many will tell you to quench then). It has to heat up about 150-200 degrees more. You observe the color at non-magnetic, and heat it up a shade or two brighter. That should put you in the ball park. The things you want to do are keep the blade moving and turning, so the thicker spine and the thinner edge are as near the same temperature as possible. Avoid overheating the edge...that the part you are going to use in cutting.

Once the blade is at the austinitization temperature, quench in a smooth and even plunge into a gallon or more of the proper quenchant. Quench straight in, point first. Only move the blade up and down, or in a cutting motion from spine to edge. Avoid moving it from side to side or it may warp. After about 7-10 seconds, pull the blade out and check it for warps. If it has some warp or twist, immediately straighten them with gloved hands or on a 2X6 with a wooden mallet. You have until the blade cools to 400F to do any straightening. At 400F the steel converts into martensite, and will become very hard and very brittle. Do not attempt to straighten any more. Allow to cool to room temperature, wash off the oil, and as soon as possible , place in the oven at 400-450F to temper for one to two hours. Take out and let cool to room temp and put back in the oven for a second temper cycle. Now your blade is hard and tough.

There is a lot more to HT than this, but that is a basic starter procedure. Again, reading Kevin's posts will provide a lot more detail.
 
Chemistguy, for temperature verification, go to auberins online and get you a k type thermocouple and a k type temp reader that goes way up there.....like 2000F or better. Or, you can hook a k type thermocouple to a regular mulit tester (electricians use them to test current). There is a chart online that is used to convert the volt readings to temperature. But spending maybe $65 on a thermocouple and digital temp gauge is money WELL spent....if you need to verify temps in a forge. Go ahead and sharpen between tempers...if you feel it is necessary. Personally, a temper of 400F is about right on the money for most tasks/geometries/steels/heat treat. If the knife is going to NEED to be more tough....up to 450F or so. Once you have control over the heat treat....you'll be able to know what temp to temper at...and not have to do re-tempers and what have you.

Decarb is an evil beast. It can trick you into thinking you're blade isn't hard....when it really is WAY hard. When a blade soaks at austenitizing temperatures for a period of time...the carbon migrates out of the surface of the steel, maybe about .003"-.005" deep. When you do a file test to see if it got hard....due to the thin decarb layer....the file will bite into the steel....and you're left thinking that it didn't harden properly. But it DID....you just need to remove the decarb layer to get to the "good" stuff. The higher the temps....or the longer the soak at temps....the more (deeper) the decarb layer you must deal with.

Hanging a blade and tapping it for ringing is not a reliable test at all. A file test isn't even very reliable either. But it does a good enough job letting us know if the blade hardened in the quench....but not much else. The most reliable method is probably the Rc testing....but even then....you need to do a few tests per blade to get an average reading....and then sometimes hard carbides will give false "positives" in a soft matrix!!

Use that kitchen oven for tempering! Just make sure any quench oil is wiped off beforehand...or the "boss" may not be too thrilled!!! I like to keep a large stone cookware thingy in the oven to act as a heat sink. Be careful with kitchen ovens. Sometimes the temperature reading is WAY off. Our is actually VERY accurate....but you have to wait a wail AFTER the beep goes off saying it is at temp. If you set it for 400F, and then the "beep" goes off telling you the oven is ready, the oven is NOT ready!!!! It will only be maybe 300F when the beep goes off.....not 400F. Takes longer for the oven's atmosphere to heat up than the little metal thermocouple, I suppose. So I keep an accurate thermometer inside the oven.....and use it only. Once that thermometer reaches 400F, I place the blade in there for 2 hours at a time.
 
Stuart,
He is using a home-brew charcoal forge, so the TC won't help him. His best bet is a magnet and an good eyeball on a cloudy day, or at night ( best time to HT by eye).

Tempil-sticks would work well in his situation, and are very affordable. I use a 1400, 1450, and 1500 for checking things.
The 1400 confirms that I am about 50 degrees past non-magnetic for a eutectoid steel.
The 1450 tells me I am at the bottom of the target for a eutectoid steel.
If the 1500 melts, the blade is a tad too hot. When the 1450 melts easily and the 1500 won't melt it is dead on ready for quench.
 
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Ah, yes. Stacy is right. (When is this guy ever wrong? Does it EVER happen? ;) ) A thermocouple/digital reader wouldn't give very accurate readings AT ALL in a coal forge, due to the difficulty of obtaining a near perfect uniform heat "across the board".
 
Update: after getting 1450 and 1500 tempil sticks, a thermometer for the oil, and an oven thermometer, I re-HT'd two blades that only were in the oil quench before (NOT THE WATER). I got them both to shave hair off my leg after the quench, but after two 1-hour temper cycles - one at 400 and one at 425 I don't think I can get them that sharp. One will cut paper though.

The problem is now isolated to the quench temperature, unless my temper temperature needs to be adjusted or my quenchant isn't fast enough. I tried to use the tempil sticks but I don't know exactly how to use them because a) the metal cools fast, b) I don't even really know what the approximate color of the metal should be, c) the tempil sticks sometimes crumble and don't seem to give a clear answer.

Any advice?
 
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I know it can be frustrating trying to nail down a heat treating regimine. I used to heat treat in my forge too until I bought an digital oven and Rockwell tester. I had a knife that I heat treated several years ago that I assumed was around 59 RC. After I bought my tester, I found out it was only RC55. Huge difference.

If you want, I'll help you out a little.

Take two pieces of steel, they can be scraps or whatever. Clean them up like you would a knife, then heat treat both of them. Temper one of them to your normal temper temp, but not the other. Temper it at like 200-225 just to releive some stress. Clean both of them back up to ensure you remove any decarb, then send them both to me. I will Rockwell Test both of them so you know the exact RC right out of the Quench, and the RC after temper. That should give you an idea of which area you need to improve.

If you want to take me up on this, PM me and I'll send you my address.

-Adam

(For the pro's reading this post) I know Rc numbers are not the end all be all solution, you have to consider grain size, etc, but this should get him closer
 
How sharp the knife gets will not decrease because of tempering. You can sharpen a mild steel bar to shaving sharp, but it won't hold the edge very long. Different steels have different final max sharpness due to differences in carbide size, but I have yet to use a knife steel I could not shave with. Show us some pics of the bevels and edge. How thick behind the edge?
 
The toaster oven is small and the temp control is poor


Firts you cannot rely on the dial, you must have a thermometer - something that is calibrated or verified.
You can likely get more temp sticks at 400f or a thermocouple


If the elements have a straight line to the blade, it has the ability to transfer radiant heat energy to the blade - way overheating it in the temper



In a real oven, you can put cookie sheets above and below the blade to fight that.

Also you can use a stone or tray of sand to try and have a stable mass at temp.
 
Then one took a good edge. Then after the second temper, neither would take a good edge.
I got them both to shave hair off my leg after the quench, but after two 1-hour temper cycles - one at 400 and one at 425 I don't think I can get them that sharp. One will cut paper though.

How sharp the knife gets will not decrease because of tempering. You can sharpen a mild steel bar to shaving sharp, but it won't hold the edge very long. Different steels have different final max sharpness due to differences in carbide size, but I have yet to use a knife steel I could not shave with. Show us some pics of the bevels and edge. How thick behind the edge?
Yes, Willie is on to something. The hardness of the knife will have no bearing on how sharp it is able to become. I am not sure why you are seeing the results you are seeing. My advise is, stop looking so hard....:) Sharpening the knife is the very last thing you want to do 99% of the time. If you insist upon sharpening the blade before it is fully polished and the handle is attached, perhaps in order to test the edge-holding, at least dull it again before you start polishing. You will get cut making knives, it is unavoidable, but you can minimize the threat!

When we harden a knife in anything less than a controlled atmosphere, we leave the edge around 1mm thick (this number varies somewhat). You will want to thin this down before doing any real cutting tests.
 
I had a new maker trying to learn sharpening email me that his knives got sharp on the 120 grit belt, but after he went to the fine belt, they wouldn't cut the paper any more. I told him how to strop off the burr....and suddenly they were sharp again :)

Chemistguy - There seems to be some confusing info in your post. How are they shaving sharp after quench??? Are you quenching a blade with a sharpened edge?
For future HT, I suggest you get a magnet and read the info provided earlier. Your current methods have so many variables it is hard to tell what is or isn't a problem.

Just to be clear, for 1084:
Shape blade and sand all surfaces to 400 grit. Leave edge about .025-.030" thick ( half a dimes thickness). Drill all holes needed in tang.
Heat to non-magnetic as evenly as possible. Check the blade every ten seconds as it gets a good red color. It will suddenly stop sticking to the magnet at around 1414°F
Heat a little redder than when the magnet stops attracting the blade, about 75-100°F hotter.
Immediately quench in Canola oil. It should go from the flames to the oil in a smooth movement. Don't rush, just move the blade safely and smoothly.
Wash gently and temper as soon as possible at 400°F in the kitchen oven for 1 hour. Remove from oven and cool off in running water. Put back in oven for a second hour. Water cool.
Sharpen and test the edge if desired after tempering. Just be sure to dull it back for the finishing steps.
Finish blade by re-sanding all surfaces starting with 220 grit paper.
Assemble handle and finish all work.
Sharpen blade.
 
I could use some 1500 degree tempilsticks but so far can only find where to order a dozen. Anyone know where I could get just a couple at a time?
 
I already switched to a regular kitchen oven with a legit oven thermometer.

I don't know about the "legit" brand, but all the oven thermometers I have tried - the ones you put inside the oven - are just bimetalic strips and they could be +- 75 degrees.



Thermocouples are the way to go, especially if you can calibrate them to a known standard.
 
I could use some 1500 degree tempilsticks but so far can only find where to order a dozen. Anyone know where I could get just a couple at a time?

Try Fastenal or a real welding shop




Fastenal tends to screw the little guy on prices, see if you can find a local industrial supplier with a sales counter.

When they ask who you are or who you are with, You are a "cash" customer

Search for "MRO suppliers" (Maintainance, Repair, Operations)
 
Fastenal tends to screw the little guy on prices, see if you can find a local industrial supplier with a sales counter.

No kidding. Quick anecdote: I called Fastenal in my city for a quote on 350 pop rivets, 1/8 diameter, quoted over $150. Went to a locally owned shop and got 700 for just over $30.
Shop around is all I'm getting at, now back to standard programming.
 
Update: after getting 1450 and 1500 tempil sticks, a thermometer for the oil, and an oven thermometer, I re-HT'd two blades that only were in the oil quench before (NOT THE WATER). I got them both to shave hair off my leg after the quench, but after two 1-hour temper cycles - one at 400 and one at 425 I don't think I can get them that sharp. One will cut paper though.

The problem is now isolated to the quench temperature, unless my temper temperature needs to be adjusted or my quenchant isn't fast enough. I tried to use the tempil sticks but I don't know exactly how to use them because a) the metal cools fast, b) I don't even really know what the approximate color of the metal should be, c) the tempil sticks sometimes crumble and don't seem to give a clear answer.

Any advice?

A $20 digital thermometer for roasts works great for tempering in the oven. Place the TC probe under the blade and set the read-out unit on the counter next to the stove. Set the alarm for 10 degrees below the temperature desired and watch the temp when the alarm sounds. Hopefully it will climb to around the set temperature. Adjust your oven as needed to keep the knife close to the desired temperature. Since most kitchen ovens swing +/- 10 or more degrees as they heat and cool, try for the top temp to be about 5 degrees above the desired temper point. What you don't want is the oven taking the blade greatly above the temper and then dropping it back. Tempering isn't an average. The top number reached is the significant one.

I find tempilsticks good for checking a TC, but wouldn't do HT with them regularly. Place a smooth sanded bar of steel in the oven and heat to 1400F. Test with the 1400F stick. It should only mark if the steel is at 1400F. If it marks, drop the temp 10F and test again. It should not mark. Raise and lower the temperature to find the exact spot that the tempilstick marks. This is the deviation. If the stick marks with the oven reading 1385F the read-out deviation is 15 degrees HIGH.
Raise the temp to 1450F and repeat deviation check. And again at 1500F.
This will give you a good idea where your readings actually are. Adjust your program accordingly or reset your readout if that is possible with your unit. Normally, you find that the TC reads low, and adjust the settings used in your program. If the oven reads 1485F when it is set at 1500F, then raise the program setting to 1515F. That should give a chamber temp of 1500F.
f a good calibrated TC and reader is available, you can do the same test by placing the known TC in the oven and comparing the readouts between the two units as the temperature reaches various points. Write the differences down and make a label or chart to use when setting your program.

As a side note, I was a research chemist back in the 60's. I know that using melting salt as a temperature indicator is a really poor method. While the melting point of any substance is empirical, the actual real world melting is affected by many factors...and it usually melts at a higher point than you think. Surface oxides and contaminants are the main reason.
 
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