I told you so!

Somewhere in an old post that I am too lazy to search out I was commenting on knife tests conducted by our very valued forumite, Cliff Stamp. I said roughly, "if you have any reservations about your knife DON'T send it to Cliff for testing."

In recent testing of some khukuris and tough knives conducted by Cliff the HI khukuri was the only knife to come through without damage.

I hate to say it, but I told you so.

Uncle Bill
 
C

Cliff Stamp

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Note the 15" Ang Khola that was tested :

http://www.physics.mun.ca:80/~sstamp/knives/face_off.html

was sold to me at a significant discount because Bill saw a fold line and suspected that it might be a flaw or some sort. In all of the tests done the Ang Khola was used first and used the hardest.

It has only two signs of significant wear in its months of use. There is epoxy around the buttcap where my brother rolled it down a cliff face and loosened it, and the tip is a bit pebbled (indented) along the edge because I accidently tried to cut through a rock one day. I think I was digging a hole or something. I could easily fix this but I just use the tip for heavy work anyway like digging and such.

During all the testing there were multiple people around and we all had the same views. If there was a conflict the testing would continue until it was resolved. Often it was due to differences in grips or slight differences in materials. Not all wood behaves the same for example. Whenever I say I did something at least one other person did exactly the same thing.

I have pictures of the materials cut and close up before and after shots of the blades. I should be able to get them scanned this week. And I should have the text of the review finished in about a day.

-Cliff
 
Thanks for additional information, Cliff. The test case HI khukuri was sold as a "blem" to Cliff so just to keep apples and oranges in a different bin the HI test results are based on a "blem" HI khukuri.

I think this might say even a bit more about the HI khukuris which, according to our pal, Cobalt, is "the toughest knife in the world."

Thanks for comprehensive, honest, and extremely well done testing by Cliff and Co.

And, Cobalt, although you do not document your tests like Cliff I know what you do to knives and you are just as tough as Cliff but don't write as much about it. Thank you, too, for taking the time to tell the truth.

And, I must not forget Will Kwan, who is not as severe as Cobalt and Cliff but posts very meaningful and informative reviews.

Uncle Bill
 
Thanks Bill, and I have to say that Cliff does an excellent write-up on his tests, very scientific and to the point. The best thing is that he is impartial as I am and we are both just trying to get our hands on the toughest knives possible.

One thing of note is that if a knife is not marketed as tough then it should not be tested as such. But if a maker is going to make claims as to how tough his knives are then he should expect people to take them out and test them hard. I have some incredible high quality hunter skinner knives that are not meant as prybars and will never be torture tested.
 
Further to what Cobalt said, I always make it quite clear to the dealer what I intend to do with any heavy utility knife before I buy it. And yeah I have lots of knives that I don't lean on, I have a SAK that is almost 15 years old.

-Cliff
 
That's right, Cliff. You told me exactly what you were going to do with your first 20 inch AK and I said fine to everything as I recall with the exception of using the handle as a hammer. I suggested that you use the blade instead if you needed or wanted to hammer something.

"Blades are meant to last forever, not handles."

Nepali Kami Saying

Uncle Bill
 
Thanks for the nice comments Uncle Bill.

Working with the H.I. khukuri's is a lot of fun. While I own a lot of other knives it is usually the Ang Khola or WWII model that get used a lot.

Also, I always enjoy reading Cliff and Cobalt's post on khukuri testing. I don't like prying much due to too many accidents with frozen food and knives in the kitchen. Its far easier to just chop through.

Will


[This message has been edited by Will Kwan (edited 30 March 1999).]
 
Hi Will:

Glad to hear you are using the HI khukuris. That's what they are for. We tend to gravitate toward what works best for us so your post is indirectly complimentary and I thank you for that.

Uncle Bill
 
I to was very pleased with Cliff's testing and his results. Based on those results, for those who want a knife that they can use as a crowbar, hammer, shovel, etc without damage . . . my Service Number One seems an obvious second to Bill's HI line.

My own thoughts are that my larger WWII and the new Bhojpure (heavier blade) will fare much better than my Service Number One when compared to an HI. In fact, although I will continue to offer the Service Number One, I know now that if a customer wants a tougher knife to be used as the knives in the test were used, the WWII and Bhojpure are for them.

Again, thanks to Cliff Stamp and Will Kwan and Cobalt for giving my knives a try. As many of you have pointed out, my knives, at 1/3 the price of an HI khukuri, present an economical alternative.

 
Actually, now that I read Cliff's review, my 15" Service Number One fared extremely well compared to the 15" ang khola. On penetration, my knife scored a 1.0 compared to the HI 1.1 score. On the Heavy Chopping Test, my knife was also just 1/2 a point behind the 15" HI. In Cliff's summary, my knife "was a solid performer" that was "capable of handling considerably heavier work." He said it would take an agressive edge, and when cutting sheet metal, was not impacted at all. Given that my Service Number one is a couple hundred grams lighter than the 15" ang khola, it is to be expected that my knife would be a close second to the HI 15" ang khola. The only real problem with the Service Number One, according to Cliff, was that the handle was too small (fixable by ordering a larger khukuri from me) and the buttcap loosened a little (easily fixed with epoxy, according to Cliff).

Now that I've had a chance to read Cliff's summary of my knives more carefully, I stand by my claim that with MINOR differences, my line is as tough as the HI line if we compare apples to apples. From a cosmetic point of view (according to Cliff), he couldn't tell the two knives apart. Any minor functional differences are more than compensated for by my 1/3 pricetag compared to HI knives. And if someone happens to get a bad apple that chips due to a too-hardened blade, there is always my lifetime guarantee. One of you on the forum (I believe it is Will, but I can't remember) is returning his "bad apple" that chipped excessively. I will be sending him out a new khukuri along with a check for the postage he wasted in returning the knife to me.

Sorry to seem so harsh in this posting, but I don't think that an "I told you so" is an appropriate response to Cliff's great test.
 
Actually, the HI khukuris Cliff has tested -- all of them -- were "blems", sold at a substantial discount. So the 1/3 price comparison doesn't work.

I don't spend a lot of time touting how good our knives are. I let my customers and our khukuris do that.

So, here's a post from another thread made by Cobalt:

--------------------------------------------
Craig, yes, the edge on this one was probably a little to hard, but who really knows. I'll
send it back to you.

In the meantime, I continued chopping with it and attempting to take out the chips
with my DMT stones. I was able to remove some but not all of the chip indentation.

The following is my conclusion, on this knife so far. The buttcap came off in the first
hour of chopping. I believe that this may be due to the tang not being properly
attached to the buttcap. I continued chopping with it. There were two hairline cracks
at the top of the handle near the brass ring at the blade, that got longer and after two
weeks of chopping wood, they gave way and a large chunk of the horn broke off, but
was still attached under the brass ring. This can be epoxied back in place, though, and
was probably from an undetectable crack in the horn. I also noted the bottom of the
handle separating from the brass ring, ever so slightly. The handle still feels solid, but
may eventually come loose due to the cracked horn, loss of the buttcap and slight
separation of the handle at the brass.

Other than chipping this blade has stood up well to chopping. It holds a decent edge
and has not developed any other cracks.

Overall, I think this knife is worth the money. I do not think that it can compare to the
H.I. product as far as durability goes. But at it's price range it does not need to
compare since it is not meant as a competitor, in my opinion, but more as an
alternative to those who cannot afford the H.I. In the price range of the service, you
don't have many real good choices and this blade fills this spot well. Also, don't take my
review as the word for all of the Service khukuries since this one may have had more
than normal flaws.

My H.I. Ang Khola has chopped considerably more than the Service and shows no signs
of wear. It is what I almost term an indestructable knife.

In all fairness to this product and most others, the Himalayan Imports Ang Khola is the
absolute toughest knife I have ever had the pleasure of owning, and I don't think there
is any knife even at 4 times the cost that can compare to it. It simply has no
competition so far as far as my personal experience goes. The blade will not budge and
the entire khukuri is as solid as ever. In fact it's at my uncle's house doing tree
chopping duty for the last month and next few months. Cliff is testing it along with the
others in his overall test and he may or may not have a different view. I think that with
the number of knives he's got testing, whatever conclusions will be quite accurate.
---------------------------------------------
If you want more customer feedback, let me know. I have hundreds I can post.

I'll say only this. In 11 years we have never had a blade chip or bend. The only failure we ever experienced was Julian's purple heart khukuri -- a quarter inch off the tip, reground, and the knife is alive and well to this day.

Anybody can say anything about anything. It's the results that count.

Uncle Bill



[This message has been edited by Bill Martino (edited 31 March 1999).]
 
Craig, it was actually me with the chipped blade and broken piece of handle.

 
Roger that, Cobalt.

Actually, the 1/3 price comparison does count, as I understand from the postings that the "blems" sold to Cliff were mostly cosmetic. As for Cobalt and his bad Service Number One, he's getting a new knife. I can't explain the bad knife he got, but am more than happy to replace it. I think that if I sent him a Bjopure (my newest, thickest model, due in next week), he will find it to be substantially more reliable, perhaps even equal in strength to your knives. In fact, I think I'll go ahead and send him the Bjopure to make up for the trouble he had.
As for your "hundreds" of available customer comments, I can only post about 50, as I have only been in the business for about 6 months. I am confident that when I too have been in business 10 years, I will enjoy a great reputation not only for selling quality products, but for selling them at an affordable price and with excellent customer service to boot.
 
Craig, you seem to want to continue to compare your khukuris to Himalayan Imports khukuris even though you have had three failures out of three knives that I've read about -- Cobalt: damaged blade and damaged handle -- Will Kwan: problems with blade chipping, loose buttcap and possible loose handle -- Cliff: tip bent during penetration test and blade bent during lateral strength test. The khukuri you sent to Will Kwan displayed the same flaw that causes an HI khukuri to be a reject. I don't think anyone has any doubt by this time that there is a difference in the quality of our khukuris.

I don't mind you selling your khukuris and, in fact, I am all for it, since you are helping in a small way the people over there to make a living of sorts even if it is at ten or twenty cents per hour. Our prices are higher simply because we pay our master kami's more money to make the best khukuri coming out of Nepal today and they undergo four inspections before they are ever shipped to a customer. Our quality control is much better as are our kamis. Our guarantee is quite different because our product is good enough that the only time we have to honor it is for a crack in a handle.

The fact that you are providing a small measure of help to Nepal is the reason why I was civil to you when you were using the pictures from my site and posting them on your site. I sincerely hope the best for you.

If you want to continue comparisons with more khukuris, I'm sure that Cliff and Cobalt are more than willing to test your khukuris. If anyone can break a knife these guys can and they have not broken one of mine yet. They are unbiased and in search of the truth.

Bill
 
Craig any two khukuri's with the same size, shape, and weight will chop about the same, initially. Often even the AC khukuri can perform well in chopping (one was tested against a the Ang Khola and the reports were quite good until tougher material was encountered).

In the penetration test you are discussing a Cold Steel Gurkha khukuri will probably beat all three of the knives. This does not mean it is a great khukuri. Think of the amount of time you will need to get that thing unjammed.

What most khukuri consumers look for is something that will work when it is new and continue to work many years latter. Considering the damage your Service Model has received doing relatively light work I expect it will be likely severely damaged in a few field outings. I suspect mine will soon look like Cobalts after a few field trips. Quality control and durability of the Service Model as the same as the H.I. knives I have.

Interestingly, the H.I. reject (considered not worthy for sale by H.I.) Ang Khola I have has done the same amount of chopping as your Service Model and has shown no sign of damage.

In my case the H.I. Ang Khola is actually smaller than the No.1 in terms of length. I do not think this is relevent but it takes me 28 chops to section a 2x4 with your No.1 or a H.I. BAS and only 13 with the reject Ang Khola. I use well aimed chops to the best of my ability in these test. I am not sure which knife penetrates better but a larger chunk of wood fly's off with the Ang Khola.

The only advantages to your service model that I got over the H.I. is that it arrived razor sharp (which promptly crumbled away and I had to resharpen it anyways) and the price (is much less). The H.I. has been shown to be more durable, user friendly, and more easily maintained.

Will you be trying your new models and see if the edges chip or the handle loosens?

Will

[This message has been edited by Will Kwan (edited 01 April 1999).]
 
Will, when I receive the replacement from craig, I'll check it. I chop fairly hard wood and it will tell within the first hour of chopping if it chips again. As long as the chips are not as big as what I got, I don't mind. It's when they are this big, they are almost impossible to remove without grinding or sharpening for days. Trust me I have tried.
 
Will, thanks for the explanation you gave about what makes a good khukuri. And Cobalt, I will certainly watch to see how your replacement blade looks after use. My new shipment arrives sometime next week, so I'll select a knife and send it out.

And here's a question for Will and Cobalt: Do you think the knives you bought from me were worth what you paid for them? Less? More? You (and the forum) seem unique in that you really, really use your khukuris as they are meant to be used. Even the Marines I sell to pretty much use the khukuri as a machette, or to slice open MREs, or for basic cutting (not punching through car rooftops). I suspect that my knife would hold up very well cutting flesh and bone, too, but nobody has done that test outside their kitchen. Your thoughts?
 
Craig, I would say that if your khukuri could stand up to a years worth of chopping on tree's only, not metal or concrete, unless it's an emergency, then they would be worth the money. If they can take that without any serious damage like large chips in the blade and the handle cracking through and starting to separate, then they are worth it in my opinion. Unfortunatelly, the only way for you to really tell is to test them. It may not be a bad Idea for you to have one out of every batch tested hard, to see. This is not fool proof but better than nothing. Of course this is just my opinion.

 
Craig, first of all let me tell you that I am very encouraged by your latest post. It shows that you have accepted the facts and are trying your best.

Remember, I am not your enemy nor am I your competitor. And if you are willing to listen to me you can learn something which can only benefit you and if you are willing to take my advice I can actually help you.

Why am I willing to do this? First, because of my Buddhist belief it is my duty. Second, because every khukuri you sell is of some small benefit to the poor people of Nepal -- and there are many there who can certainly use this help. If I help you I help the people of Nepal plus it helps me keep the karma cops away from my door.

The first thing I would encourage you to do is to read everything that has been written in the HI forums. There is a lot of information here which will help you understand your khukuris, the people that produce them -- the kamis, the country from which they come -- Nepal, and the people who made them world famous -- the Gurkhas. The more you know the better off you will be.

You asked about price. If you are selling your khukuris for about 1/3 the price of the HI khukuris you are in the right ball park. Your khukuris are better than the Indian junkers by far but they are not as good as the HI khukuris. How do I know this? Because I've seen thousands of khukuris just like the ones you are selling. Read the old thread, "Am I qualifed to host this forum?" and you'll understand.

Another thing I'd advise you to do is not oversell your khukuris. Don't say they will do things they won't. You have enough test results now to give you a good indication of their limitations. Stay within these limitations and for two reasons. If you say your khukuris will do something and they won't word spreads fast and your credibility will suffer. And, more importantly, if someone believes your claims and then finds himself in harm's way and needs your khukuri to save his life and your khukuri does not perform as you said it would you may have placed someone in a very dangerous position because you oversold.

It might be a good time to rethink your guarantee. Don't be ashamed to offer a lesser guarantee than the HI guarantee. You are selling your knives for 1/3 the price so it makes sense to me that you don't need to offer an unconditional guarantee. You might consider putting a qualifier in your guarantee which says something like, "These khukuris are not meant to be used as crowbars or for chopping and punching holes in steel."
I don't believe you will get any argument from anybody in this regard and I don't think a lesser guarantee will hurt your sales one bit.

The biggest problem you are going to have is your quality assurance. The Khukuri House is not going to QC your khukuris nor will any other dealer. They are going to send you what they buy without even taking the khukuris out of the scabbard. This is what you face when you buy from dealers in Kathmandu. I think your only solution is to QC your khukuris yourself and be wary of visual inspection only. The khukuri might appear wonderful but when you put it to the test it could fail. Remember, beauty is only skin deep. At a minimum I'd suggest this. Put a file and stone to each blade you intend to send to a customer and see what that tells you. Second, get an oak log and give it a few whacks, full strength, and then inspect the blade and see what it tells you. Third, make yourself a rig to test for lateral strength. Stick the blade into your rig and give it a lateral pull of 75 or a 100 pounds and see what happens. If your khukuri passes all these tests then send it away as an inspected and passed khukuri. If it fails you will have to make a decision as to what to do with it. Due to shipping costs it is really not worthwhile to return it to Nepal and there's a chance they will tell you the khukuri was never received anyway. You might consider selling it as a blem or give it to a valued customer.

I hope this information will help you. If I can be of further assistance let me know.

Uncle Bill
 
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