I wanna make some real damascus..please help !

B

Bart student

Joined
Nov 17, 1999
Messages
676
Hello folks,

I have tried to forge weld stuff in my cokesforge before (charcoal goes too but is rather expensive). First..I can make beercaps stuff, but only because I make thin stacks and i can heat them reall good with good control.
I once tried O-1 / bandsaw, but this failed... How?
For one, the layers were sliding off eachother, secondly, because I could seem to get it to weld.
afterwards, I examined the block, and there were like spots were the steel was bare on both sawblade and O-1, but it welded only so-so as i could knock them apart ith a chisel. The other pats were borax miced with impurities I think (it didn't look like glass, more like glass with dirt in). It didn't weld at all in these spots.

now, as I was thinking over this...Maybe I made the block too big for my forge, so I got yellow heat on the outside, but not in the inside.
Or..since I have no clue what the bandsaws are, maybe theye are like HSS or something like that.

I also tried to forgeweld coins with nickelpercentage..no luck at all.

Now, I still wanna make some damascus, so someone please fill in the gaps. To make it easy, i'll list the stuff I can use.
Steels: 52100 bars, 5160 leafsprings, Chainsaw-sword from Stihl, D-2, O-1, another bandsaw (thicker and more like L-6).
Borax, cokes/charcoal forge (i usually burn a 1/4 charcoal 3/4 cokes mix for regular knifemaking), hammers, eye- skin and ear protection stuff, some tongs, one crucible, cast 1095 HRC 60 anvil, regular heavy electric rod welder, angle grinder, steel saw, grinding paper...

Is it absolutely neccesairy that I build a powerhammer? Or get a gas forge?

Sooo..please tell me hat to do excactly, so I don't screw up again.
Damascus FAQ-time! Where can i find a good one anyay?

greetz & thanks in advance, bart.
 
It might seem impossible but if I can do it, well....
How big of billet did you start with?
My original hammer and anvil made damascus was 2 peices of 5160 and two peices of 1095, 1 inch wide by 2.5 inches long by .25 thick. The stack was only 1 inch thick and 1 inch wide so that it would heat throughout evenly.
I am not a expert, but having just gone thru this it sounds like you have traped dirt and flux in your welds and some possible cold shunts, or unweldable material.
My sugjestion is to use materials that you are positive as to its identification like O1 and 5160.
Start by grinding the flats of your material to clean metal as flat as possible, and cut the strips to the same lenght.
Stack the layers alternatly by metal type and clamp them together. Then run a bead of weld down the middle of both ends to hold the stack together. Then take your angle grinder and grind the sides of the stack flush if they are not already. What you want is a nice even stack on all sides with a weld down both ends. Next weld your handle onto one end of the stack, I use flat bar 1X.5 inches so that it does not twist and I can keep track of the orientation of the billet layers.
Heat in a clean fire and start fluxing as soon as any color starts to show. Flux again as it turns to red and keep enough flux on the billet so that it looks wet. Rotate the billet from time to time as you heat it to allow the flux to run in and out bettween the stack layers.
When you get it to yellow heat go quickly to the anvil and start at one end of the billet and with medium hammer blows work up the lenght of the billet to set the welds, reheat and flux as required. You only need to reduce the height of the stack by 25% to get a good weld set.
When you think you have the welds set wire brush off all remaining flux, lower your temp to a forging level and forge the stack to a bar twice the lenght of the lenght of the original stack taking care to keep the sides square and even.
Let it cool a little and grind all the scale off the bar. It should look like a solid bar with no black lines or cracks. Cut the bar into two equal lenght peices to check the inside, it should look lke a solid steel bar at the cuts.
Stack the two peices and weld the ends and start over.
This is how my mentor first taught me.
Good luck!!!
PS. A hydralic press makes life so much easier.
 
Bart,It took me a few years of failures before I finally got some Damascus together.;) So don't get flustrated,OK....
Here is a link to Don Foggs site.You will find all kinds of great info here and you can email him with some questions.He also has now added a forums on this site that might help you out some.
http://www.dfoggknives.com/

Now as for your problem:
First are you making a domed fire so you are in a oven effect when trying to forge the Damascus? This works easier.
Since you are having trouble just getting a weld try this teqnicue that I start people with that I am teaching.
Take two pieces of steel that are about a 1/4 inch thick each or a little thinner and about 4-6 inches long.Since you have a welder tack the ends real quick.Now put this piece inside your coal and coke oven and let it soak for a few minutes then take it out and flux it then put it back in the fire and bring it up to a yellow white heat(just before it sparks real bad)a few small sparks and a sizzling noise is fine.Now bring it out and just TAP it together DON'T hit it hard at this point,Hit center then side to side then move down the bar over lapping the last set of welding hits.Then put it on edge and tap it and see if it breaks apart or just flattens.REMEMBER to only hit this piece while it is hot and not under a orange heat.Keep it hot all the time and never hit it when it is cold as this can shock the weld apart at first.If you successfully get a weld down this bar you can now hit it hard at a higher heat and stretch it out some and thin it down.Now cut it in half and do it again and then again and then take it in the shop and grind into it and see what you have.
A fun way to learn is to take a flat spring and straighten it for a long handle,now take a small scrap piece of steel that is laying around that is no bigger than your hammer faceand set it on the spring after you have the spring hot flux it and heat the two pieces (you may have to add a little more flux as the second piece warms up)Now when you get to the welding heat just tap the two pieces together,you will know right away if they are welded as the top piece will bounce around until it does weld.If you didn't get it the first time just flux it and try again.This way you will see where your heat needs to be and how soft or hard to hit the piece to make it weld.Once you get that piece to stick just hit it and smooth it into the first bar and then add another piece and keep adding a few pieces then cut and fold and weld that and then stretch and fold aand weld a couple of times and then go grind into the bar and see what you have made.This will let you use up scraps from around the shop and save the good pieces untill you can make that weld.Once you can weld two pieces together you are on your way because you use the same heat and hammer blowes to weld two or 10 pieces at the same time.
You can wire pieces together with plain tie wire that is steel not stainless.
If you are using recycled leaf springs you may also be running into a problem that I found the other day...They are putting a coating on the springs to keep them from rusting and it doesnt burn off real easy in the billet,so I have found that you will need to clean (grind) the coating off to shinny metal before you start.
Sorry about being so long winded here and hope this helps,
Bruce
 
I forgot...Yes the bandsaw blade material will weld together fine.I have even welded up the cheap thin metal cutting blades that I have wore out.It just takes practice....
Don't give up.
Bruce
 
Thanks folks..great replies.

lemme get this straight...you don't need to hit it very hard to weld?
Then why do people say you need a powerhammer? I have hammered down 1 inch bars and supersize springs in axes and hammers. infact, the hammer I'm currently using is a 5160 hammer with hardened and mirrorpolished faces.

I was worried about overheating it before because I though O-1 couldn't take that too much. Maybe because I forge in a really dark place, I misjudged the temp...hmm..next time try higher temp

Oh.. If I weld them together, I get the impression that the welding heat forms a layer of oxides on the steels, same goes with anglegrinding. Is this a problem?

Would a good way to start be to try and hammer 52100-O-1-52100 because I can cut of small dishes of the 1 inch bars which about match my hammer face, and use the O-1 bar for handle.

Or with the chainsaw sword, since I believe it's 1095-52100 or 1095-O-1?

Because of the chrome content in 5160 and 52100, isn't that harder to weld in an open fire?

Use the forge with half barrel cover on (I used to use this only for melting stuff in crucibles) for the oven effect.

All that lasts is the fuel.. charcoal, cokes or a mix? I seem to find that charcoal give off more heat, but cokes last longer (I only have a real thick size cokes).

Ever taught of casting this in a beginner tutorial?

greetz and thanks for the answers, bart.
 
Another way to ensure good coverage internally of your frux is to take a bucket(metal) fill it with warm(or hot) water, then dump enough flux into it to make the water reach its saturation point aka where it cant take anymore and its starting to cover the bottom. Heat your billet up and open it up a bit, then dunk it into your bucket, this will A: cause the flux to flow into the open spaces of the billet, and capillary action will draw it into the rest of it. Pull it out, throw a cup of flux onto to make sure, bring up to heat and WHACK:)
 
90% of the time I see beginner pattern welders have problems it is flux related. I know it's not what you really want to be doing with your time, but I strongly recommend just practicing with mild steel bars till you get the formula right. Plus you can push the envelope on the temp with them and not have to be so worried about starting them on fire.
 
Bart
As Bruce said be firm but not brutal. To much shock at the initial welding stage will rip the welds apart, especialy when forging on the side. I use the 25% compresion factor on the hydralic press with flat faced dies and I usually do it in two steps.
The power hammers are used mostly for drawing out the billet after the welds have been done. I used a power hammer once and all it did was spray hot flux all over and distort the He(( out of the patturn.
I like Bruces idea of welding little chunks of one steel to a bar to get the temp and feel down.
 
I just finished forging my first domascus steel blade, It's cooling with the coals in the forge(normalizing)

I've been watching the procedures that I was given here on the forun by Bruce B. and Bruce E. prety close. I've had some problem with temp.s and colors because I'm forgeing in full sun, but once i figured out the colors to watch for, how much flux (generaly lots and lots)and how hard to hit, it worked swell.

now, if it will grind out.

I'm running a small coal forge, a vaccume for a blower, hammer tongs and anvil.

the other fancy equipment may make it go faster, but is not nessary

If i may trouble shoot, make sure you have an even heat all the way through, keep turning the bilit. lots of clean flux, keep putting on more, and try just a little hotter, you have the same result that I got when I was almost, but not quite hot enough. also remember that you only have 5 seconds from the time you pull the steel out of the fire before it's to cold to weld properly when hit.

I'm not an expert, but if I can do it you can also,

never give up:D
 
Kisu: very inventive idea..but I'm a little afraid to make a lot of oxides...mostly because people always say to use anhydous borax, and what you propose is excactly the opposit. I will try it out anyway, hell, it may even work good for me!

Dangus: O.K. up till now I've only used pail pure borx, snow-white powder. what can you mix with it to make it better? I've seen Achim Wirtz use a greyish borax mix, he said it got better after time. I think he mixed some other salt in which attracks water better then borax. And what can you mix with it to make it agressive to do nickel steels? (Don Fogg proposes something, but i dunno what he means)

R Dockrell: so don't whack it flat (about 50% reduction by every hit) at once ith a 10 pound hammer? I used to do that once, and it worked.
And i'm gonna try the idea of Bruce of the bars and temp exercises this afternoon. i'll keep you guys posted !

Eric M Ericson: The pat on the back i really needed (just did a fairly bad exam). Thanks to you I am gonna try it out this afternoon.
Also thanks for the practical advice. This could be really helpfull.

Thanks folks, maybe i'll be getting the hang of it this time with your help !

If anybody got some other practical tips, keep'm coming.

Greetz and thanks for the replies.
 
Hello folks,

I tried to make a pack of 4 layers of L-6 and 5 layers of 1095 from a chainsaw sword.
I kept them ultraclean, sanded them to 60 grit till they fitted nearly perfectly. then i welded a bar on one side. I kept the other clear, tought that would be beneficial for the borax...

Then I fired up the forge, noticing I harly have no charcoal left..soo cokes mixed with charcoal.

I heated it up, keeping the edges wet of borax. Then I saw that my forge doesn't get hotter then yellow-orange... this was at first a comfort, because I couldn't melt it this way and leave it in a long time to get the heat all trough, but on the other hand I couldn't get hotter..so maybe too cold for forgwelding temps.

Anyway, I then hammered them together as bruce said, and it felt real good..at first you feel the loose plates with your hammer, afterwards you feel a solid piece of steel.

Then I left it in the forge to soft anneal (maybe a bad idea?)
In the morning, I hammered it a little bit flatter, noticing the top plate of 1095 has a bad weld till about 1/4 of the block.
The other welds look perfect (when you file the sides, you'd swear it is a solid piece of steel). I cut off all edges to check welds, look all O,K, except the top plate.

That's how I left it.... what do you people suggest I do next to make a small knife out of it? plate is about 1 1/2 inch x 3inch times 1/2 inch thick.

I understand you fold it a few times... how do ya do that?

Thanks for the help so far folks.

greetz, bart.
 
Way to go!!!!!,If the stack welded then your heat is fine.First you need to get the to piece to weld down.Just heat and flux it again then with that piece towrds the bottom this time put it in the fire and heat to welding again,the whole billet shoild be the same color all the way through.After you get this welded start heating it to almost welding to weldin heat every time and start stretching it out,I would suggest narrowing the bar on the edges some as it is harder to weld a fat (wide )bar.I like to keep mine no wider than the hammer face.You can widen the bar after you get the folds done.I like to stretch my bars out to 1/4 inch thick and 1-1 1/4 inch wide and as long as I can get them then just cut it into equal lengths then if you want take the side grinder and clean the scale off and stack it again and start the process over.Or you can just stretch it out some and hot cut it in half,but only cut about 3/4 of the way through the billet and fold it back on to itself then start welding from the end that is folded.
You don't really need to make all your pieces flat befor welding,in fact I have been told that it is better to crown the oieces.Leae the edges thinner than the middle this way as you weld the flux and scale are pushed out the edges and thus nothing is trapped in the billet.Always remember to strick the billet center side side as you are welding if it is wider than the hammer face this way you are not trapping anything in the billet either.
Fold it a coulpe of times and then go grind it and see what you get for a pattern.You will gradually start making higher and higher layer counts as you get used to folding and welding.
Good luck,
Bruce
 
Oh..forgot...

How do ya make billets weld if they are larger then what you can hammer at once?

Is it possible that you can feel from the hammerblows if it's welded or not?
 
Bart,Hit it in the center first then on the side then the other side keeping the hammer blows overlapping.If it is real wide just start in the center and work out to one side then go back to the center and work out the other side.
Yes you will know when it welds under the hammer as the metal gets real stiff and the anvil makes a different ring than when you started the weld.
After you have the billet welded and you let it cool off just tap it on the anvil and it should ring like a regular piece of steel if it makes a dull sound then you probably didn't get a good weld.But this only works after the bar is cold.
You can also check your weld by putting the bar on its edge after you have welded a section and striking it,if the layers want to separate then you need to re-flux and re-heat then weld it again.
Another trick at first is to only work about a 2 inch section of the bar at one time,don't try to heat the whole bar and then weld it all in one shot at first until you get the feel for it and have gotten a successful billet welded and made into a blade a couple of times.
Bruce
 
Someone on here a while back posted a great formula for fluxing that I have used since then. I have it out in my shop but if I remember correctly it was fine sand at lower temps to insulate, then you work up the heat and use hardwood ash. I think there was iron oxide in there somewhere. I'll see if I can dig up that formula later(I need to clean the workshop very badly).

I'm sure many of the guys here have various formulas that would work.
 
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