I went camping yesterday......

Sesoku

Sesoku

Joined
Oct 19, 1998
Messages
498
A friend and I went camping near Tawas, MI yesterday with the intent to spend two nights out. We parked and hiked about a mile to a great little secluded spot next to the river. We set up camp and got plenty of firewood gathered. After we had some lipton noodles for dinner (cooked on a msr dragon fly) we went to bed because it was cold and dark and we didn't have anything else to do. I was trying out a Z-rest mattress instead of my usual camp-rest, and sleeping in a North-face Cats Meow 3-D synthetic bag. Well with long underware and fleece pants and top on along with my stocking cap still on I was fine for a while, but later in the night I got chilly. Between being chilly and going to be at probably something like 7 pm, the night seemed to last forever. Finally it was morning. I got up and we got a fire going using a sparker and the cotton ball + vaseline tinder combo. By this time my toes were numb, so I got my boots and socks off and started rubing them and holding them by the fire to get them warmed back up. After about 10 minutes they were toasty again. After we cooked oatmeal and packed up camp we hiked back to the blazer and drove home.

Soooo, in retrospect I think that I should have worn winter boots instead of hiking boots, and I would have been much more comfortable with another layer on my upper body, which only had my long underware, a heavyweight fleece, and a gore-tex parka shell. On my legs I had long underware, fleece pants, and waterproof pants. I took extra socks and underware, but other than those no other clothes. We had plenty of food and fuel.

Any comments, suggestions, or criticisms are appreciated.
 
Hi Sesoku....

Have a question for you !
Did you wear a hat to bed ?
80% of heat loss is through your head (Ron/Greg,, correct me if I'm wrong)

Another couple of things you might want to try next time..

Eat some hard candy when you start getting a little cold.. Give the boiler room something to burn! or hot liquids,, or a hot water bottle...

You could also have gotten up and did some excercises to get the old pumphouse warming things up,, then go back to sleep.

More insulation underneath you would probably have helped....
And possibly one more thing.. You may have went to sleep with Too much clothing,,especially in a bag like that....

You feel fine when you first get in,, then you sweat, clothing gets damp from the sweat condenses on the inside of the bag,,and you get cold. Maybe if you had a little less on inside the bad,,you would have been alright. The Cats Meow is a good bag and should be rated for at least this temperature...

I use a Mustang survival suit for ice fishing and what have you,, but I dare not to walk far in it,, even on the coldest of days or I'll sweat like a pig.. In severe conditions sweating will kill you. I usually only wear track pants, sweater, wool scarf and a zip up jacket underneath so I can vent carefully and slowly if need be. If you Bake,, you will Freeze,, if that makes any sense!

Actually I was also wondering about quality of sleeping pads and how well they insulate against frozen ground. Was thinking of taken my son out for one night this holiday,, but don't want to end up cold with a little guy a mile or so deep in the bush....

Hope that helped...

ttyle Eric...

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Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel
Custom made, High Quality
Concealex Sheaths and Tool Holsters
Canada's Only Custom Concealex Shop!

 
Sesoku...

Looks like you have the same mattress and sleeping bag as me! I only have the whisperlite internationale though (dragonfly a bit too expensive for me, and the whisperlite was on sale when I bought it).

Anyways, I've never been to MI, so I'm not to sure about the weather conditions you were encountering. I tend to avoid specialized winter boots in favor of heavy duty hiking/mountaineering boots and warm socks, just because winter boots tend to get hot and are harder to maneuver around. You might also consider getting a down jacket and pants if you really need heavy insulation while sleeping.
 
Sesoku,

Did you wear your cap to bed, good idea if not. Was anythig you were wearign tight or binding? If so blood flow might have been constricted.

Did you change or take off your socks and or underware/long underware worn during the day? If not they may have had dmapness from your day in them still and starting off with heat robbing moisture is self defeating.

I am not sure about the sleep pad you mentioned but a layer of leaves under it might have helped.

I do not use a sleeping bag often but when I have I have found out less is usually better in one. Clothes restrict blood flow. If the bag is rated for the temps you have let it do its work, it is designed to hold in your heat. It does not create heat, simply helps keep what you have in you. So making sure you have calories to burn and are not damp or cold to begin with goes a long ways. That is also why the hat suggestion fro mearlier is helpful, it helps keep you body heat in the bag so the insulation can do its thing.


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Lee

LIfe is too important to be taken seriously. Oscar Wilde
 
Originally posted by Sesoku:
A friend and I went camping near Tawas, MI yesterday with the intent to spend two nights out. We parked and hiked about a mile to a great little secluded spot next to the river. .. Well with long underware and fleece pants and top on along with my stocking cap still on I was fine for a while, but later in the night I got chilly.
Click to expand...

Sesoku,

You didn't mention what the temperature was outside, nor what your sleeping bag is rated at. Since I also live in Michigan, I know the weather has been pretty cool lately and it may have dipped down into the teens. You also didn't mention if you were sleeping in a tent or not. Without a tent, you will lose a huge amount of heat by radiant heat exchange to the extremely cold night sky. Even a cheap tent or tarp will provide a barrier to radiant heat loss.

So, my suggestions are: 1. Make sure your bag is rated well below the temps you expect to experience (especially if you are a cold sleeper). As a rule of thumb, a good winter bag should have 8-10" of loft. 2. Use a tent or tarp to provide a barrier to radiant heat loss (preferably, get a good 4 season tent for winter camping--it will really help keep you warm) 3. If you can, make sure your tent is located in an area that will minimize convective heat loss (sheltered from the wind). 4. Don't go to bed "wet" i.e., change into something like polypropylene underwear that is dry. Don't wear the underclothes you've been hanging out in all day, especially if they are at all damp from sweat. For sure, avoid cotton. Once damp, it will cool you off by evaporation all night long. 5. Make sure you are well insulated from underneath. If using an open celled pad, it should be at least 1 1/2" thick for cold weather sleeping. If using a close cell pad, 3/8" min and for midwinter, use two of them. A good combo is a closed cell on the bottom and a thermarest type above. Lash them together with straps.



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Hoodoo

When you arrive at the fork in the road, take it.
Yogi Berra
 
Hi all,

Great answers! I will add just a few points..

First off...the Cats meow 3d bag is rated at 15 to 20 degrees F. Its insulation material is polygard 3D (a good lightweight material). It is an excellent bag.

However, when winter camping it may fall short of providing the warmth you need. Best way to overcome this (in addition to above information posted) is to bring a thinsolite quilted blanket during winter trips.... I use a poncho liner (a quilted thinsolite blanket) which I place below and over me...inside the bag. this will increase the trapped dead air quality of my environment alot.

Since it is trapped dead air that keeps you warm...always fluff your bag before getting in it. In addition, store the bag in a way that it hangs free (not in a compression bag) when at home. In the field...if weather permits...air out the bag during mid day (not if there is moisture in the air).

Go to bed in the buff....so the radiant heat gets into that dead air space and keeps you warm...or wear polypropylene long johns.

Thats all I have to add.

happy trails.

------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?

 
Sleeping with your boots on is not a good idea in cold weather anyhow, because of the lack of circulation, trapped sweat and your feet swelling. You are better off putting your boots in a bag, and putting them in your sleeping bag with you (so they aren't frozen come morning). Regardless, if you are going to sleep with your boots on, at least loosen the laces so that your feet and ankles regain some of the blood flow.

Ditto on the poncho liner, it's the cat's ass as far as warming you up, and for the weight it's about the best thing out there...
biggrin.gif


Spark

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Kevin Jon Schlossberg
SysOp and Administrator for BladeForums.com

Insert witty quip here
 
Thanks to everyone who replied. I DID wear my wool stocking cap to bed along with some polypro underwear. I was in a tent. I think that I should have had another blanket in the bag and another type of mattress like my camp rest instead of the z-rest. I was even wearing some thin glove liners on my hands. I have been storing my sleeping bag in the storage bag that came with it which is very loose fitting to maintain the loft of the bag.
 
FWIW, we once were camping in April and it suprised us and went down into the mid 20's. My wife had on every bit of extra clothing and was cold all night. I was fine in long johns (top and bottom). The difference? I was working: stoking the fire, cutting wood and moving around alot. She was sitting by the fire. I had my extremeties close to my body while sleeping, hers were isolated by layers of clothing.
Mittens are warmer than gloves because your fingers keep each other warm. The same works for your arms and legs in a sleeping bag.
The next night it was just as cold, I had her eat and then take a 15 minute walk before bed, & just wear long johns in the bag and she was just fine.
Oh yeah, we didn't have hats, just crawled way in the bags and pulled them up over our heads.
Also, we had the bags zipped together so we could keep each other warm too.
Just my experience.

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Can it core a apple?
 
I'd second Greg's advice on going to sleep in the buff. I've very rarely found sleeping in any actual clothing to be helpful. I'll usually add a stocking cap and socks.


I've been camping in low temps of everywhere from 80 to -24, and I've only been actually cold once, and it was above zero. I forgot my sleeping pad. Normally I take one about 3/8", and somewhow or another I forgot it this time. I got cold. I don't know what my bag's officially rated to. I've been down to -24 without a tent or shelter, and only polypro longjohns, socks, and a wool cap to be warm. I woke up once with cold toesies, but that was it.

Be absolutely sure, whatever you wear to bed, that you _did not_ wear it during the day. Even if you didna think you were sweating, it got wet. If you are out in the cold for several days, change as you get in your bag, and keep the same stuff on for the next day, or just keep enough to change twice. I won;t carry that much clothing...

As far as boot in a bag in your bag, all that makes is wet warm boots... I'd prefer, personally, to bring some paper towels and pack boots. Pull the liners out of the boots and wipe out the shells, and leave the liners to freeze overnight. Shake 'em _very_vigorously when you wake up to knock what moisture you can out of them, and then put 'em on. I'd rather have cold, semi-dry boots than warm wet ones...


Stryver, who's complaining vehemently about the high of 45F it made today... SToopid melting snow...
 
Hi....

Another thing you might want to think about is airing the bag out,, for a few mins everyday...

Don't ever sleep with your head inside the bag if you face is cold. This will produce humidity insidethe bag,,which will make you cold as well...

This may sound stupid,,but this is what I do when my face or head is cold...
I put my jacket over my head and shove my face into the arm sleve and use it like a snorkle. This keeps your face and head warm. Gives you some extra upper body insulation and lets you breath fresh air.

On the bad side of this,, it may creat humidity inside your jacket.

Try what Greg and I have said about sleeping with less cloths on.. You'll find it works very well.

ttyle Eric...

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Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel
Custom made, High Quality
Concealex Sheaths and Tool Holsters
Canada's Only Custom Concealex Shop!

 
One of my favorite books on outdoor equipment (will do a review after the holy days) has the following recommendations:

Wool and thinsulate clothing (I wear wool long johns at work with a set of military polypros and have no problems in the high 30s without a jacket. I will never again buy cotton long johns.)

Heavy weight BDUs, wool combat clothing (european surplus is pretty reasonable)or (if you can afford it, Gore-tex) as an outer layer.

Military "Mickey Mouse" boots WHENEVER THE TEMP DROPS BELOW FREEZING. I have seen claims that the cold weather boots will actually warm ice water coming into them (you military guys wanna put in your .02?). He recommends making insoles and toe caps out of heavy duty foil, to reflect more heat, along with insoles of foam rubber. He recommends agaist wearing more than 1-2 pairs of socks because each one compresses blood vessesels, reducing heat. I have worn danners in sub freezing, and they are great while you are moving, but when you stop the toes freeze.

The reference he gives is a hunter that needs to move to an area and wait, possibly getting stranded. He also includes tips like taping chemical hand warmers to your shirt just over your kidneys (a military sniper trick), or just buying the small chem warmers for your boots if you really need extra warmth.

comments?

pat
 
Hi Guys...

In Regards to the Mickey Mouse Boots...

Us Canajuns got you Yanks beat in the boot arena.. We use the white Sorel Mukoluk,, and they are a fantastic boot.

Although the Mickey Mouse boots are more heavily insulated on the bottom, the Mukoluk is lighter and easier to walk in...

I've used the Mickey Mouse boot for ice fishing, and they work well,,but are clunky to walk around in...

ttyle Eric...

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Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel
Custom made, High Quality
Concealex Sheaths and Tool Holsters
Canada's Only Custom Concealex Shop!

 
I'm not Canadian but grew up in stone throwing range of the Border and I agree with Normark about the utility of Sorel boots. When we winter camp in the Adirondacks, most of the crew wear Sorels and have an extra felt liner with them. Changing the liner daily can do wonders for chilly feet. That being said, I almost never wear anything but insulated hunting boots (currently Timberland Ididarods (spelling?). I seem to be built for cold weather and my feet are comfortable in this type of boot with polypro liners and heavy wool socks. I change socks daily (but not liners).

I use an overbag for very cold weather -10 F or colder to extend my main sleeping bags range. I am not sure of the brand of my overbag but it is insulated with thinsulate and works much like the poncho liner but on the outside of the main bag.

I always wear a watch cap in my mummy bag and also bring several small candy bars into my nest for midnight fueling. I sleep in polypro longies. This combo of gear and stuff has worked down to a measured -36 F.

John
 
Little info on those mickey mouse boots...

Were I in a survival situation, I'd want them.

They work by taking a rather thin layer of insulation, and completely sealing it from the atmosphere. (There's a valve for flyers) This means when your feet sweat and get wet, you pull them out, dry 'em off, wipe the boot out with a rag, and everything is good as new. No extra liner, no drying out yer boot, no nuthin'. The insulation never gets wet, and the thing is 100% waterproof.

The downside is your feet will get wet, and you will need to dry them off. Otherwise you'll end up with trench foot.

Personally, I prefer the feel of my pac-boots, and I would rather wander around with an extra liner than use the bunny boots, but the bunnies are extremely functional in a wide range of bad situations. If you fall in a lake, they're fine. If you get lost, and don't have your second liners, they're fine.

Plus, they're what the arctic survival school issues for gear. And they use them down to -40 and below...

Stryver
 
Stryver

I hear you about drying them out,, that does make sense...

One bad thing about "our" sorels is that they work fantastic in cold weather,, but are not real good in sloppy wet conditions.

When Ice fishing I would probably want the Mickey Mouse boots, or Ice Kings.. The Ice Kings have a VERY thick welt, with the same type of insulation as the MM boots, therefor they insulate Way better when standing on ice all day...

Bingo,, thats where my portable ice shanty and propane heater come in...

I Like watching everyone freeze while I relax inside,,watching the bottom of the Lake Go by! Opppsss,, somethings wrong!!!!!!

Actually had that happen.. Hey,, that clump of seaweed wasn't there before,,, OH $hit,,we're Moving!!!

NOT GOOD! LMAO...

Eric....

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Eric E. Noeldechen
On/Scene Tactical
http://www.mnsi.net/~nbtnoel
Custom made, High Quality
Concealex Sheaths and Tool Holsters
Canada's Only Custom Concealex Shop!

 
Hi everyone,

Boots are an important issue... take care of your feet

Having been a USAF Survival Instructor until 1990 (and having taught at Eagles Pass and Boro Point...Stryver's neck of the woods), I have to agree that the Bunny Boots are great under extreme conditions.

However, as a side note (to everyone) I must say that during my time as a survival instructor for the USAF... it was more common for us instructor to wear the sorrel boot unless the conditions were very severe.... Even when we had the students wear the Bunny Boot. We thought the Bunny boots were just way to hot and akward under most conditions....

------------------
Greg Davenport
http://www.ssurvival.com
Are You Ready For The Challenge?
Are You Ready To Learn The Art Of Wilderness Survival?

 
I wear the Mickey Mouse boots for ice fishing. I've never worn anything else that comes close to these for ice fishing. I've worn them for 20 years. My feet absolutely never get cold out on the ice but I've frozen my toes many times with a wide variety of other boot types. I've tried Sorels and froze many times. But I think it depends on the type of Sorels you are talking about. There are mnay different kinds. My sorels were not Mukoluks but felt-lined rubber bottomed boots. I would be interested in trying out the Sorel Mukoluks for active work outdoors. Does anyone know an online source for these? My brother used to wear some mukoluks on the ice and swore by them. I don't think they were Sorels. Some kind of military version I think.

Anyway, like most people say, the Micky Mouse boots are not for the active person. Bulky, awkward, and too warm if you are actively generating body heat. However, there is a slightly smaller version. The smaller ones I've seen are black. Never tried them but thought they might be better for active wear. Maybe someone else here has had some experience with these.

For ice fishing, I wear a Cabela's down parka, down bibs, polypropylene long johns, wool pants, wool shirt, down or fleece vest, a bomber hat, a thin pair of polypropylene socks and a pair of wool socks over them and then the mickeys. I've been on the ice when the ambient temp was -10 and the wind chill was -80 and thinking to myself that it will have to get a lot colder to get me off the ice. I've got a nice portable ice shanty that I haven't used for 4 years now. Don't really need it here in balmy Michigan.
smile.gif



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Hoodoo

There's no fool like an old fool. You just can't beat experience.
D.O. Flynn
 
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