Idaho Jones!!! (awesome pic)

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Nov 2, 1999
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Indiana Jones would not have stood a chance up against our own Brian "Idaho" Jones, Moderator of the Wilderness and Survival Forums here at BladeForums!!!

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In a candid moment, Doc Ron got this shot of Brian as he was about to embark on a dinner mission about two weeks ago on a survival excursion. I'll let Brian comment himself on the trip, as there are some stories from it which are totally MasHawkistic!!! :)

Enjoy!

BTW.....note the snow in June!!! ....it ain't fake!
 
I was wondering about that snow. It is an awesome pic and we look forward to reading some of his Hawk adventures.

Thanks Brian.
 
Brian Lad,

I see that you're now posin' for magazines. Don't forget who's 'hawk is in your left hand.

For those of you who don't know, I'm being a wise-guy. Brian and I were on this trip together with Ron & Karen Hood of Hood's Woods. To say that the Ranger Spike Hawks were VERY USEFUL would be a tremendous understatement.

Due to the several days of continuous wet and melting snow, freezing rain and other "normal" surprises which SUMMER in the northern Rockies held for us, Brian & I found the 'hawks to be an EXCELLENT and possibly vital tool for creating the sort of shelters needed to support a snow load using only the 'hawks to procure, shape and assemble the frames and our ponchos to give our crew a place to become dry & warm, cook and generally recharge. Remember: for survival your priorities revolve around the 'twin sisters' of shelter and water. We had plenty of water, and it was all nice and cold :) so shelter was the number one priority.

Our best 'heavy' shelter was a "long house" made from two issue ponchos, one civilian poncho and a reflector "space" blanket. It was warm, dry and quite comfortable for the whole "tribe" under very wet & cold conditions. The shelter could have been made with field knives, but was completed in record time, along with a cooking rack (zo my vater vill boil faaaaster...) and a few huge stacks of fire wood using two Ranger Spike Hawks.

The shelter was designed to have a reasonable draw for the fire, so that smoke went 'mostly' up between a space in the ponchos and was fed by air which was drawn in under the poncho edge. Once the wood was dry it worked rather well, but like all campfires burning pine, there were times when all that you could do was to clamp your eyes shut and feel the tears running down your face. Happily, with this design it doesn't happen as often...

Speaking of fire wood, why were the Ranger Spike 'Hawks so useful? Picture all wood in the entire region after being soaed in freezing rain and wet snow for days. Where do you find DRY wood for your fires? There was a lot of standing dead timber from recent fires, but it was all soaked >on the outside<. The inside of the wood was all perfectly dry. Using the 'hawks, Brian and I would down the standing dead trees 4-6" in diameter, drag then to camp, drive the blades into the trunks to start a split and then reverse the 'hawk to drive the spike into the split and wrench the 'hawk handle to the side, spreading a long split in the logs. If it didn't split the entire length, I would insert a wedge (branch, rock , Brians' hand...) into the split in the log to hold the split open and move the spike lower into the split and wrench the handle sideways again. Repeat as necessary. We generally split all lumber in to quarters to expose the dry inner wood which burned well and this allowed the wood piles in the shelter's covered entrance way (under the civilian poncho) to dry for use later.

The spike, while an awsome anti-personnel weapon also proved to be a very useful wilderness tool for breaking-up hardpacked and rocky soil for easy digging, breaking up logs, as a high leverage tool for splitting out wood.... basically, any rough work that you would not want to damage the nice & sharp main blade for. The spike is robust, and it is not generally needed to be sharp.

These are just a few of the many uses which we found for our 'hawks. I brought along some leather and made a sheath for mine around the campfire, stitching it with the inner strands of 550 (parachute) cord and my modified Leathermen tool. I then protected the stitches by covering them with a natural glue made from pine pitch and animal dung (NO , I'm not kidding...) The idea of running around the woods with a razor sharp tomahawk in my belt just seemed like a BAD idea.

There will be more that we can post and we have some partial pics of one or two shelters. At the time, we were more concerned about making the video and maintaining daily camp life, so the 'still' pics were secondary, but they should be fun for people to see.

By the way, as much FUN as these 'hawks are to throw, Brian and I both met a concensus that they are SUCH vital tools, that to throw them for fun out in the wilderness was like throwing your only knife: a sin - possibly mortal. We waited until we were at the mountain meadow waiting for the bush plane for extraction before we found it "safe" to do some hobby throwing.

I love my outdoor knives, but the chopping horsepower and general utility of these Ranger Hawks is truly amazing!

As a side note, I often drove in shelter stakes using my Ranger Spike 'hawk turned sideways, using the "sweet spot" at the base of the blade to strike the wooden stakes. It was easy to drive stakes in this manner.

>RadioRay ..._ ._:eek:

Ps. I do want to let you know that this was the first time that I had even met Brian. I can tell you that as a team we all went through what any normal person would consider wretched, cold wet and physically draining times. I learned that I can count on him and that he keeps his "stuff" together when it's tough out there - which is generally when we like it the best. This is HIGH parise from me, because I'm naturally mean, nasty and hate everyone with a prettier girlfriend than me, but Brian has this "drive-on attitude" which I've NEVER seen outside of the elite military community so he was seriously enjoying the shitty conditions right along with the rest of us 'sick-os'. Under conditions like this, all the "tourists" have died from exposure and we Hoodlums then have plenty to eat! :p
 
Well,

Ray has summed up our use of the hawks better than I ever could! Spending two weeks in the woods with him was like going to school for me!

When Doc Ron invited me on the trip, and told me RadioRay would be on it, too, I was a bit intimidated -- I knew of Ray's background as a former Army Spec Ops wizard, and as an expert wilderness skills practitioner. He and Ron were in the same unit in the Army. With the two of them out there, I had a lot to live up to on this trip! I experienced firsthand why Ron calls on Ray for the most difficult excursions. He can be counted on to hold everything together, and then some! (plus he was kind enough to let me take his hawk with me -- his is in my left hand). I trust Ray to have my six in any situation. And he is the BEST technical wilderness navigator I've ever come across (and I've seen some really good ones). Plus, he is a dead-on shot with his Desert Eagle .44 Magnum.

Ray came up with all sorts of inventive uses for the hawks to solve survival challenges that came up. We did do some throwing in the beginning, but as Ray noted, when the weather really got bad, the hawks got us warm and dry VERY fast. So, no throwing until the end of the trip after that -- we needed to be sure they were in perfect shape for shelter building, etc.

Wait until you see the cool hawk sheath he made out of a piece of leather in the wilderness -- it is awesome! It'll be shown in the film we made out there.

As Ray said, when we were wrenching the hawks (some times standing on the handle) sideways to split open the wood, they handle the extreme torque without blinking an eye!

We learned that we could absolutely count on the Ranger Spike Hawks all the way. We were so fond of them, that we carried them on our belts at all times during the trip.

Andy, thanks again for all the support from ATC.

Peace,

Brian.


"THUNK!"
 
GREAT REVIEW! Now where do we send the checks?

Seriously Guys, these seasoned veterans of the wilderness completed this review of their own accord, with their own equipment, and completely unsolicited by us. In fact, I am not even sure if Andy gave them so much as a discount? This speaks very highly of their integrity and as an owner in American Tomahawk Company, I want to personally "thank them" for their time and efforts to inform us of their experiences with the Ranger Spike Hawk! Had the review gone the other way, we would have been just as appreciative to have the facts. We don't want warm and fuzziness, we want TRUTH!

The "field sheath" pic is eagerly awaited in addition to any other pics you have that could augment the story.

I am also desirous of hearing more regarding "edge retention" after use, and field sharpening as most of todays axe's don't typically come with much of an "extreme sharp" edge. This would lend me to believe that a "hair popping" edge is not required for heavy chopping efficiency in the bush. We won't deliver our Hawks with anything less, but I am just curious to know how absolutely necessary it is for heavy chopping needs.

We are very pleased to hear of the strength of the spike under lateral pressure. The pry action for splitting seemed pretty tough and we are glad to hear the spike and handle performed well.

This is the first "Professional Testing & Review" we have had regarding performance and we look forward to hearing more in the future.

Based upon your field testing, it is easy to understand just why Major Rogers issued his men a Hawk of this robustness. They were not only needing a good CQB tool, but more importantly needing something that would keep them warm, covered and fed (cooking fuel and possibly skinning). Did you guys do any skinning with the Hawk? I realize it would be difficult with the handle and head size, but it begs the question how many Rogers Rangers actually carried a knife, or maybe just the Hawk.

Any further info or pics would be greatly appreciated and thanks again.

Andy, next time the three ATC Hawksateers are going with them!

Out.
 
Ray/Brian.......

Thanks so much for your posts here.....remember, you have a free recondition and resharpen on us if you want to send your Hawks back in......we will turn them around quickly.

Your support of our product and kind words of thanks are appreciated.....we are glad to know you and glad to have had the value of your expertise in the use of our Tomahawks afield.

Hey Frank........you can go on the next one with them yourself. Bobby and I will take a suite at the Holiday Inn near the trailhead and wait for you to come back for the review..... :D
 
Brian Jones :

no throwing until the end of the trip after that -- we needed to be sure they were in perfect shape for shelter building, etc.

A simple bastard file will handle even major damage in a few minutes as the steel is easily worked. I took mine to a concrete block to take the edge down as well as remove the point through impaction. No fracture noted, just impaction and denting. I also chopped up a few nails with the primary edge as the concrete was breaking up under the very high impact energies and thus not doing the level of damage to the primary edge that I wanted to see.

It took me under 15 minutes to restore a fine point to the spike (that sharp you can't rest it on your finger for example) and to get the primary edge sharp enough to slice photocopy paper. You will want to finish the edges with a finer hone for strength, as the file will leave a visible burr. I used a duafold 600/1200 grit DMT diamond hone, followed by a strop. There was one spot on the edge that is still dented in, but it would be a waste to grind all the steel away, about 95+% of the primary edge is close to NIB performance.

Brian, what are your thoughts on the 'Hawk as compared to a decent large class knife, 10" blade or so?

GPB :

I am also desirous of hearing more regarding "edge retention" after use, and field sharpening as most of todays axe's don't typically come with much of an "extreme sharp" edge.

The good ones do, Granfors Bruks, for example. There is a lot of junk out there, but of critical importance is the edge geometry and not the sharpness. The latter can easily be fixed in a few minutes, the former requires a serious amout of time and effort.

This would lend me to believe that a "hair popping" edge is not required for heavy chopping efficiency in the bush. We won't deliver our Hawks with anything less, but I am just curious to know how absolutely necessary it is for heavy chopping needs

The greater the edge polish the smoother the cutting stroke and the more durable the edge. Ask any woodworker how he keeps his carving tools, including the ones used for stock removal. Sure you can make due with anything, but why would you want to.

Assuming you have a high polish on the edge, and the steel is durable enough to prevent fracture (which 5160 easily is), all you will see during chopping is misalignment. It takes a tremendous amount of work to actually wear away any decent amount of steel. You should be able to restore the edge to 100% by simply working it with a strop, first convas and then loaded leather. This can be continued until you actually damage the edge as the steel is readily cut by a decent buffing compound like CrO so there is no need to periodically recut the edge like you want to do with high alloy steels.

As an example, I cut through 50 pieces of 2x4 sized wood with the ATC spike awhile back (comparing it to a few other hatchets, hawks and blades), I noticed no loss of cutting ability throughout, so the deformation was minor and only effected performance below the precision I was recording to (<10%). The wood was mostly pine, but some harder woods like Juniper and Spruce as well as some light lumber scrap. The edge on the 'Hawk was easily restored on a strop to where I could not tell a difference from NIB performance.

The only way you will wear away any amount of steel is by cutting something very abrasive, which doesn't happen much with axes, unless you are for example using them to skin a large animal with a very dirty coat.

On the other hand, in oppsition to the above, if you leave the edge very rough then the microteeth will break off during impacts. This will make the edge dull much quicker and also give you much more work to do when restoring it. But again, nothing serious, if you were working constantly like felling and limbing, you would probably hone at lunchtime and in the evening with a few passes with a fine file. If you went up to a decent polish you could easily forgo sharpening on a daily basis.

I should note however that the above information on edge retention on woods only applied to woods like Oak, Juniper, Spruce etc. , there are some *really* hard and abrasive woods out there than can really take an edge apart quickly, Ironwoods for example. Usually though these are something you would want to avoid cutting as not only are they very difficult to cut and induce a high rate of wear on your tools, but they can be dangerous to work as some types splinter readily.

-Cliff
 
Howdy,

We find that in the woods, a good solid field edge works, but not hair-popping sharp. It tends to roll/damage more easily when too sharp, mostly because you may be tired and drained while doing the work, and your technique tends to get a little more "iffy." I apply this rule to all my big blades in the woods, large 10" choppers, hatchets, and the ATC Spike Hawk. If I only had the hawk for cleaning game, then I'd finish up the edge to more of a hair-popper to accomodate finer tasks. We did do quite a bit of whittling and shaving of wood with them, and they were great. A lot of the reason for the non-hair-edge is because when it's cold and snowy, you want to do as little edge maintenance as possible to conserve your energy. A person can burn up to 5000-6000 calories a day meeting their survival needs in a wet, hypothermic environment! What that means is you can get tired and therefore careless very quickly.

Cliff, it's good to read about your tests, and glad the hawk is holding up well. I had no doubt it would. For us, the fear of damage wasn't the blade, but the handle. Wood is wood, and the terrain where ground squirrels like to dwell tends to be rocky and bouldered. A broken handle means time and energy taken away from meeting other needs to fashion a new one, or at least fix the old one. Plus, it didn't make sense to throw our primary survival tool away, because you can just plain lose it -- in water, down a gulley, etc. Having to rappel down a canyon to get your blade burns calories. ;) In other words, a primary survival rule is: don't throw away your tools. Hell, we just wanted to get warm and dry as fast as possible! The edges could be stropped around the campfire each night (easily as you mention), but real damage again means time and energy drain to fix it. 15 minutes can be the difference between extreme discomfort and relative comfort. Plus, the weather out there changes literally in 5 minutes. If the blade got bent out of alignment, it could be hammered back into alignment using any number of things found in the woods, like a primitive blacksmith. The softer RC is deisigned to accomodate possible damage from throwing, and it's a good thing. No chipping of the edge when you glance off rocks, etc. by accident. We found in general a few passes with a fine ceramic rod put the edges back together very quickly.

As far as chopping abrasives, I agree with you. However -- dirt seems to get into everything on these excursions! So alot of abrasion creeps into the equation on many tasks as you go. Keeping the edge clean and dry is a key here, and wiping off dirt on the work helps, too.

I find that the distinction between a good 10" chopping blade and the hawks lies less with their design, and more with the level of technique of the user of each tool. A big knife is more easily used by the inexperienced to chop, as your aim doesn't have to be as true as with a hatchet/hawk. You probably have found the same. The smaller 3+" blade of a hawk needs to be driven true and at the proper angles. Practice makes perfect, so that even when you're exhausted in the woods, you can go into "automatic mode". There are specific techniques for chopping with hawks and hatchets. With a big knife, you don't have to be so good (of course good knife chopping technique is important, but you can fudge more). With proper technique on both tools being equal, I'd say the hawks make for much faster work on heavy chopping jobs, because more mass and momentum is concentrated on a smaller area (yikes, I'm saying this to physicist!!! ;)). I don't know if Ray and Ron would agree with me on that, but it was my own experience. It was satisfying as hell to hear and feel the "Thunk! Crack!" as it split apart wood. ray and I kept looking at each other while working and smiling/commenting on how great these hawks were to use.

Frank, thanks for your kind words! We didn't get the opportunity to skin with the hawks, as we only bagged small game. The thin skins respond better to small skinning blades, but I have no doubt that I'd have plenty of control with a hair-popping edge on the hawk to accomplish the task if it was necessary. Although I'd probably just pierce the game with the hawk spike or corner of the main edge and just tube skin 'em.

Andy, thanks for the offer to refurbish. No need, however, as the hawks kicked butt, and they have those small battle marks from use that make them truly our own unique personal tools!

Using the hawks was thrilling -- like going back in time and really living as Rogers Rangers must have done. We were carrying a piece of history with us, and I'll tell ya, the "coolness factor" just because of that was awesome! And yet, they performed like champs at the same time. Coolness overload...:D

All the Best,

Brian.
 
I just heard about this thread and thought I'd toss in .02.

The Hawks performed beautifully. Anytime we weren't filming or on the trail Ray and Brian would be busy improving the crew shelter, splitting wood or commenting on the quality of their Hawks. At night, the soft "shlllipp, Shillipp" of the hawks receiving a new edge filled the camp with a special music only blade lovers really hear.

As far as "Hair-popping" goes, Brian and Ray and I all subscribe to the "Field edge" theory. It just has to be sharp enough to do the job and not so fine as to lose the edge from work.

I shot a number of scenes of the Hawks working out there and I suspect that when I am finished editing these into an effective (and representative) sequence, Hawks will once again be joining the belts of the Hoodlum wilderness wanderer's where they should have been all along.

With respect to comparisons with large field blades... That is really an unfair comparison as the purpose of the blades are very different. I can chop with a big field blade, but not as well as the hawks. I can carve with a large blade better than with a hawk. I cannot split wood as well as with a hawk unless I use a baton.

Incidentally, we were all tossing around the notion that a "hammer" syle head might be useful if it could be done with the symmetry and functionality of the spike. That or an extended "flat spot" on the side of the Hawk to act as a hammer for those resistant spikes you need to hammer from time to time (we used rocks :) )

Just so you know... My ATC Hawk is sitting in it's place of honor next to my Great Grandfathers 1863 Springfield from the Civil war. I know he carried a Hawk during the war but no one knows where it went to.

Thanks for the opportunity for the extended test of the ATC Hawk. Two weeks of what we went through is as tough a test as I need to be able to whole heartedly recommend the product. It will be going with me on future trips and next month I will be using it as we film the "Desert survival" video. It's just the tool I need to split those nasty "water Barrel cactus"

Congratulations.

P.S.

I just read Brians comment:

"A big knife is more easily used by the inexperienced to chop, as your aim doesn't have to be as true as with a hatchet/hawk. "

I disagree. If your aim is not good enough to hit the "sweet spot" on the big blade, you don't really chop... you just slice a bit. If I give an inexperienced woodsman a hammer he can hit the nail easily (the hammer has a tiny face). A Hawk has a much larger face than a hammer and is just as easily, and accurately employed by that inexperienced woodsman. The difference is in the safety of the Hawk vs the big blade. A hawk in the hands of an inexperienced person is frightening and dangerous. A big blade is much less frightening. There are many reasons for this and the discussion is way beyond the scope of this post.

The suggestion that big blades are used by "Inexperienced" woodsmen is a bit off the edge and I'm certain that Brian knows better. In the 4 months I lived with the Shapra-Candoshi indians in Northern Peru I only saw them use an axe twice. The rest of the work, carving, cooking, chopping etc was all accomplished with a machete. This is true with every peoples I have lived with. The Turks were the only exception but they were raised with hatchets and axes. While I only have about three decades of living off the land it has been almost exclusively with a big blade, I have some experience out there. The reason I chose big blades is that they can do it all and I don't chop much other than to acquire resources for carving. There are thousands of good reasons to use a big blade. BUT... The hawk can much more efficiently handle the generic camp work required in group wilderness living and it IS a much better chopper. That is why I invented the ATAX.

All that said... The Hawk will still be going with me in the future. There is room on my belt for a big blade and my hawk.

Ron
 
You're right, Ron - I do know better. Actually, rereading my post, I actually wasn't saying that big knives "are used by the inexperienced," just that the inexperienced would find it easier to chop with a knife, rather than an axe or hatchet. The safety factor was weighing largely in my mind even though I didn't articulate it. I've seen a lot of near misses by people with a hatchet or hawk. Thanks for clearing that up!

Best,

Brian.
 
Ron, Brian and My Fellow Hawk-o-Maniacs,

The combination that I see is my multi-tool, sheath knife and hawk. The tasks required in most wilderness situation are best handled in layers, like an onion. Fine work is handled more aptly with smaller blades, though a large blade in skilled hands can do it all. As for the chopping, like Ron said, in general the 'hawk out-chops the big blades, but it's a matter of versatility. For example:

I carry a large Chris Reeve Knife. I've carried it for years, and once when I asked Chris if he would consider making a Khukuri styled knife for enhanced chopping power , his answer made sense (and applies to this hawk and knife discussion). Basically he said that his knives are good choppers, but not as great as an axe, good skinners but not great like a single skinning knife, good carvers..... Basically his knives are designed to be "good" at a lot of the things which you'll need in the wilderness. You're carrying the versatility -vs- being good at one or two things only. It's a balance.

The big blade is "good" for most of what you need in the woods. It's versatility means that whether you're un-zipping a ground squirrel or building a raft, you have a tool that will do it all in skilled hands. Yes - there may be those tools which really excel in certain areas, saw, axe, draw knife, drill but the knife is basic.

Enter the world of the tomahawk. The 'hawk is an awsome chopper, shaper and many other chores. I want one with an adze on the back, and then I'll be making canoes! It's power to make firewood, shelters and other large camp tools is clear. I am quite confident that I could build a trap, kill a moose (we encountered PLENTY of moose up there...) skin, cook and eat it, with only my 'hawk, I'd still see the best combination for my money to be the multi-tool, field knife and tomahawk, but after my experience with my hawk on my last trip, I can absolutely see why Major Rogers required his men to be equipped with these tomahawks. If you had the skills, and got dropped into the forest with only your hawk, my guess is that you'd be fine.

About care in the field, I found that by keeping the cutting edge out of the dirt (don't throw it...) It was easy to maintain the edge using the ceramic sharpener on my P-60 sparking rod/sharpener (from Workd Survival Institute www.wildernesssurvival.com) . I would stroke the ceramic rod over the dulled edge uand this would restore the edge to whatever level you like. I often made it literally shaving sharp to demonstrate that it can be done, and besides - I like to show-off. It goes back to my school days. Chores around camp don't require this fine of and edge on a heavy chopper though. The "field edge" on a hawk is a good, robust working edge. These Ranger hawks are easy to maintain in the field.

So, my impression: wilderness work begins with your skills, then I go for my big blade, then my multi-tool, then my tomahawk. I have to tell you though, if you can grab all three - DO IT! I would have really been hating life if we had to chop and split all that wood using only my blade. It can be done and I've done it for years, but the 'hawks make it all happen very quickly, save a lot of calories (remember: survival = burning fewer calories than you swallow. If you swallow less than you burn, eventually you die.).

Lastly, being ex-Army, the historical link back to Roger's Rangers made me especially appreciate the design, 'feel' and significance of the 'hawk that I was carrying. If Major Rogers and his Rangers had dropped into our mountain camp, he would have felt right at home. Some things never change. Always remember: the wilderness IS 'The Real World'.

>RadioRay ..._ ._
 
Sounds like we are in agreement then...Brian, I apologize if I sounded a bit abrupt as I was off to the woods to go fishing when I wrote that and my hiking boots were yellin at me. You know how ancy we get!

Ray, as usual you summed it up... multitool, 9 inch or so fixed blade and a hawk... ready for all seasons and all reasons. I sure as hell would hate to try to build a log shelter with my big knife!

The fishing was great as the water was down... Ya should have been here :)

Ron
 
NP, Ron! These discussions are always more fun over Fosters and BBQ anyway (especially if it trout caught that day!).

Then, when we disagree, we can move right into jujitsu practice. ;)

~Brian, who was impressed with Ron's perfect hip-throw...ouch!
 
You betcha!

We need to start planning the next trip :) I promise to find a place that hasn't been burned out and one that has no bad tempered bull moose. It will be a place with big trees and a nice meadow for tossing those hawks.

"~Brian, who was impressed with Ron's perfect hip-throw...ouch!"

Actually Brian, I tripped and just grabbed you to catch myself. I fall a lot these days ;)

Ron
 
Another trip sounds great!

Looking forward to seeing you take apart the barrel cactus in the Desert video...thunk!

~B.
 
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