Ideal Axe Hardness Range?

Dunner

Dunner

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Jul 24, 2004
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I have been looking around for a bushcrafter type axe and am leaning towards getting the Council Tool 2 pound Hudson Bay "Bushcraft" axe. I know it may not be the best in class. For the same money I can get a GB Small Forest Axe. It seems like Council Tool is leaving them on the soft side at 50 - 54 RC and I wondered what the practical difference is going to be. I like idea of having an edge that can handle some hits against harder than intended targets. I have been reading a lot here lately and reading links posted here to respected resources and while I have seen comments that this hardness range is considerably softer than GB and Wetterlings offerings I don't have a solid grasp on how this would stand up to the "in hand file test" some have recommended. Is this hardness considered to be in an acceptable range for a premium compact splitting axe?

Description of use: I do most of my dirt time in the soaking wet Pacific Northwest, Cascade Mountains. I have been using large knives and batoning a lot but I love the feel of a hickory handle on a 'hawk or axe and feel I can get a lot of splitting done in a hurry with a 1.5 to 2 pound axe. Some limbing and getting to the dry core of arm to leg sized log segments will be the primary chores. Fuel is usually a variety of pine, cedar, and alder mixed in. Nothing too tough nearby but I want a go anywhere axe.

Edited to add... I know desired hardness is highly subjective and hence the reason for posting a description of use. I thought I should add that once I got my head around available knives I ended up going with Busse (again and again) not because of refinement or because they are the best at everything (because they are not). I buy Busse knives because they work well for me, are super tough and are not prone to chipping out. This is an important part of the discussion for me personally.
 
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I read the ASM heat treat guide for 5160 and it yields an RC of 52 so Council is sticking to the guide I guess and their range of 50 - 54 is the spread they are getting. I am probably way too picky but I feel like if I got one at the high end of the range at 54 RC I would be best off. I suppose my concern in ordering is ending up with one at 50.
 
I've been thinking about ordering some of Council's more inexpensive stuff and giving it a try. Although I feel like I don't get to use what I have enough so I haven't yet committed. I really don't have $100 to spend on another axe, but I could get a Boy's and a Hudson bay pattern for around $50.
One thing about axes and machetes that I have found is that even though they are softer than a knife blade it is their edge geometry rather than their hardness that makes them cut/chop well.

I too really enjoy this forum and look forward to your decision.

BTW, from what I read Council is really trying to get their high end line of axes a good reputation. I have heard several good things about their customer service department. If you did decide to order and received something that you did not like I am sure they would make it right.
 
I don't have the money either LOL. I will have to sell something or wait to get it. It does seem like Council is serious about the premium axe market and I hope their customer service will show that determination. I want to buy this specific axe as my vote as an American consumer. I want to see more of this.

Edited to add: I also thought if there was a consensus about a higher desired hardness that we could start making a case for them to change the heat treat a little to achieve that.
 
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FWIW, I have a custom 2lb Hudson Bay style axe made from 5160, and the maker (Brent Bailey) hardened it (and all of his axes I think) to 54-56. When I ordered it I told him I wanted something capable of handling hardwoods and frozen wood, and he said it wood no problem. I've used it a few times now, and made some bad swings (still learning), and the edge has held up great. Scott Gossman made the sheath for it, and he though the 5160 at that RC should be spot on for an axe.
 
I don't know if this will help you or not...but there's a dude on BCUSA that is working on compiling a database of information about various boy's axes, including the CT. Today, as a matter of fact, he is having them all RC tested. Keep your eye on it, should be interesting.

http://bushcraftusa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=57738
 
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Thank you guys for the info. It looks like Brent Bailey does some great work! I saved his site and will have to revisit his work when I have some free funds and a better understanding of axes. I dusted off my login over at BushcraftUSA and am going to keep an eye on that thread.

Another thing I thought of.. Council tests hardness 1 1/2" back from the edge. If the usual RC testing is done at the edge (is it?) then is the Council Tool Axe bound to have a higher hardness right at the edge? That would make me feel more comfortable that I am going to end up with edge hardness closer to the 54 - 56 mentioned above.
 
Hi Dunner;
I'm not qualified to talk about rc hardness, I just trust the mfger on that. There's science involved there.
But I do own the council tool Velvicut hb. I have split pretty big rounds of swamp oak,white, red, live oak, for campfires and it handles splitting with ease. Can't wait to hit some pine with it.
I will say this much it holds an edge longer than their line of tool steel axes. I have used several over the years. Even the standard grade line is damn good.

There are options as well with the handle size if you get that far. Best Made makes their version which is longer some like that one. I own the Council version and it is a little shorter than stated.
The edge comes thick and needs to be dialed in too.
hope that helps
 
Cattledog, that does help a lot. Thank you. Now I just can't wait to get one. I am going with the CT one for the shorter handle. I could see myself trying to chase down one from Best Made later. This forum has me fired up about finding some old project axes too.
 
Dunner said:
This forum has me fired up about finding some old project axes too.
Click to expand...

We're a bad influence. Don't let your wife catch you looking at any axe porn.
lol.gif
 
Having owned/used/tested a boatload of axes, I lean towards axes that are in the 55-57 range for most of the year. Dead of winter, a softer Council will be less prone to chipping from the cold. For a pure bushcraft axe though I definitely want harder steel for easy sharpening and maintaining a fine edge. Having reconditioned\sharpened a bunch of older American axes and hatchets as well, I notice they are all as hard as Wetterlings and Gransfors. The problem I've seen with Council axes is their inconsistent heat treats. Some are just too soft and the edges roll too easy, and some are hardened a little better and do fine. I do like the 5160 on the Velvicut but still wish they made the Hudson Bay a little harder. I also abhor the aluminum wedges on their standard axes. They work ok in the Boy's Axe but are a nightmare in the standard Hudson Bay, and I've also had problems with one in a Council Jersey Axe.

I'm testing some other axes right now and think they're a better overall deal than the Councils if you want something more consistent in quality (unless/until Council has better quality control and gets rid of that awful aluminum wedge). If you don't mind non-traditional, the new Fiskars X-series are phenomenal performers. Once the edge is sharpened a couple of times they seem to hold up well and hold an edge too. The X15 I'm testing outchopped every traditional axe I own (and all are profiled and razor sharp). Helko of Germany has really nice axes and the steel rings like a bell when tapped. Price is similar to Council. Husqvarna is selling a rebadged Hults Bruks Forest axe right now for $63 with a leather sheath. The grind looks rough but the profile is exactly like a Gransfors Scandinavian Forest Axe and performs just as well. I should have a review of the X15 and Husqvarna up here soon.
 
That is exactly what I was thinking CW. Either Council is sloppy on their heat treat or they are getting inconsistent steel stock. Either way if they want to sell a lot of velvecut product they are going to have to tighten that up. I think I sound pretty picky reading back over my own posts and I am leary for a few reasons in addition to the understanding that a company trying to sell only perfect axes would drive itself out of business.

1) I am relatively new to axes
2) Council is relatively new to premium axes
3) I have less trust in companies that make a wide variety of products
4) Many companies will make manufacturing decisions (compromises) that will make it easier to offer what sounds like a great guarantee
 
coloradowildman,
glad you are adding some incite to this thread,
i don't get many opportunities to test my axes so i appreciate all you guys do

buzz
 
To serve as a better reference for anyone who may end up finding this thread in a search my newb-ish understanding of axes leads me to see the hardness spectrum about like this... (and I submit these for feedback from those who have a better idea... I DO NOT KNOW)

> 60 RC - Careless heat treat, brittle tool, soft, non-frozen wood only?
58 - 60 - Carpenters axe, small hard bushcraft axe/hatchet, short handled tool that will not generate the velocity to cause much chipping.
56 - 58 - Bushcraft Axe/Hatchets, harder end of spectrum for a boy's axe, generally shorter to mid length handles
53 - 56 - High speed, full handled axe that withstand heavy impacts all day long
50 - 53 - Splitting maul, Tools designed more for impact that cutting
< 50 RC - Poor steel or carless heat treat, too soft, sharpen constantly

Those are just my guestimates.

And Square_Peg, I love it here! It is great seeing all these fixed up axes and learning about old patterns and makers. I can actually play a little with axes. At least until they start piling up LOL. Buying a "Big Chopper" blade was running me $400 to $600 so it has opened up possibilities for a significantly reduced budget :)
 
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