Identify - Korean War Era "Presentation Grade" USMC KA-BAR

W

WarrenD

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May 7, 2016
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This knife was handed down to me by my father who was a U.S. Marine in the Korean War (about 1950-54). All he could tell me about it was that it was some sort of "Commemorative" or "Presentation Grade" knife he received from the Corp. I have written KA-BAR tonight asking for more info. but thought the members of this group might also be helpful in providing some info.
I have scoured the Internet for photos of other knives similar to this one and have come up COMPLETELY empty. Can not find ANYTHING even close.
I have written a complete description up that I believe to be as accurate as possible if it would be of any help to anyone.
The only marks I can see are "KA-BAR", "OLEAN, N.Y." on the left side of the blade and "USMC" on the right side.
Thanks in advance for any help at all.

P.S.
I'm brand new here, very first post so please take it easy on me. ;)


Korean-War-Era-USMC-KA-BAR-Left-Side.jpg


Korean-War-Era-USMC-KA-BAR-Right-Side.jpg
 
Description for knife in above photos:

The knife has a 7" Clip point black (or at least "Half" black, Top half) blade. High Carbon Steel, thick, straight edged, no serrations, Full length partial tang, wide, but shallow blood grooves, stamped "KA-BAR", "OLEAN, N.Y." on the Left side of the blade and "USMC" on the Right side. Overall length is 12½". The Guard & Pommel (somewhat oval shaped with a round smaller portion in the center) are silver and appear to be aluminum. The handle is oval in shape and "Ringed" with clear (possibly Acrylic or other plastic) and silver colored (again, possibly aluminum) segments, with a deteriorating (flaking?) red colored paint or dye covering the tang and visible through the clear handle. If there was any sort of sheath, it is long lost, although I am currently looking for a suitable replacement. The blade of the knife is very much in need of some TLC. It has about a one 32nd to a one 16th inch of the tip broke off and about the same size crescent shaped chip from the edge of the blade just behind the tip. The blade is fairly discolored and some very light corrosion but overall in pretty good shape considering it's age and abuse at the hands of my older brothers at a very young age.
 
The knife was made during WW2. After the ending of the War all outstanding contracts for knives were canceled about August of 1945. The next Government contract found so far for the 1219C2 pattern knife doesn't show up until 1960 awarded to the Utica Cutlery Company. It does certainly appear that the knife was disassembled and modified. Likely done while in U.S. inventory. I can certainly see it as being intended as a presentation piece.
Great looking knife, and I really like the family history. Thanks for showing it.
 
Wikipedia article states: "After the end of World War II, Utica Cutlery Co., Conetta Cutlery Co., Camillus Cutlery Co., and (beginning around 1980) the Ontario Knife Co. all produced the Mark 2 under contract for the U.S. military. From approximately 1945-1952..."
To the best of my knowledge, my dad has had this knife since new, so you think maybe it was not made "as is" by KA-BAR? Possibly modified by The USMC? Very interesting. Thanks so much for your response.
 
Definitely NOT made "as is" by Union Cutlery. Modified by SOMEONE, who may or may not have been associated with the Marines.

I just read that wikipedia article. There is a lot of correct information in it, but there is also a lot of misinformation in it as well. A an example, the sentence you quoted is kinda correct , but is misleading. The way it is written MIGHT be taken to mean those 3 companies made 1219C2 starting immediately after the war, when IIRC no one made them from 1945 until about 1960ish. There's also misinformation about the USN MK1, Western's L76/L77, and about the Collins No 18. There are germs of truth in the statements, but there's mis-statements there as well.
 
Okay, so if this was modified after it was manufactured, in your opinion (since I can not find one single knife even similar) would you tend to believe that as it is, it may be an individual mod, the only one of it's kind or do you think a company may have modified a "batch" of them for some sort of "Commemorative" significance?
Thanks again for everyone's input. I am more and more fascinated with this knife the more I learn about it.
My father is still with us but after a series of strokes and an auto accident resulting from one of them, he has been in a nursing home for almost 10 years now (he's 84, I'm 53) and no longer has his full previous mental capacity to ask him any further details about the knife. I'm just very glad I had the discussion about the knife many years before and in discussing his Will one day, I made the statement that the only thing I wanted of his when he leaves us, was that knife. A few years later, he visited me in Maryland from Florida and out of nowhere, he surprised me and gave it to me to make sure I got it before it "disappeared", either before or after he passed.
 
These kinds of knives fall under the category of "theater knives". These are knives made or modified by someone, often by the troops themselves in the field; but, just as easily by their families at home or by a garage tinkerer.

n2s
 
Just because he got it during the Korean War does not mean it would not have been GI. When WW2 ended, the Navy and Marines had enough to last until 1960 before needing to order more. "Theater" knives, those modified after being issued by some one "in the field". have been being made since the first soldier was issued a knife even back in the Bronze Age. Your father's was not modded in the field, per se, on the front lines or in a camp, but by an REMF that had access to a machine shop, either at a base or on a Navy ship. The plastic used frequently came from aircraft cock pits, truck tail lights, miscellaneous GI components that had extra plastic stuff that wasn't being used at the time. Any aluminum used could have come from aircraft skins, scrap metal or machine shop stock. Brass, when used, sometimes came from shell casings, scrap, etc.

It would most likely be a 1 off mod, unless the modder did several at one time. If it was done as a "presentation" knife for whatever reason, a singleton would make more sense, except if the "presentation" reason was for multiple individuals for doing the same thing, whatever the "thing" was. Someone took a lot of time to make that one, making sure the plastic and metal discs of the handle match up well. It also looks like it has a pommel nut. The modder might have threaded the tang to hold every thing together with a nut, or it could just be peened back together. Is the pommel peened or does it have a threaded nut?

Take a look at the various "commemorative" 1219C2s/USN-MK2s Kabar has made over the last 20 years. They are all made just like the original (well, almost - they have pinned thick pommels, which were NEVER made during WW2 - one of the ways Kabar makes them so they can't be claimed to be real WW2 knives).
 
Yes, that's one of the things about Wikipedia. I'm sorry to hear about your Dads health, been there myself. I don't know where the guy posting on Wiki got the 1945-1952 dates, just not so. The knives where made from late 1942 to just after mid year 1945.
The blade marked U.S.M.C. contracts all seem to have been filled for the Marine Corps.before the 1945 cancelation date. Late in the War the markings were moved from the blade to the knifes guard. Those knives are marked for the U.S. Navy, except for some U.S.M.C. guard marked knives made by Camillus. Before the next contracts for these knives were awarded the specification was changed so the knives no longer include a branch of service marked on them.
For Government contracted 1219C2 pattern knives the only ones with either U.S.M.C. or Navy marked versions occurred during the WW2 years.
 
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He listed this as his reference: Shackleford, Steve (ed.), Blade's Guide To Knives And Their Values (7th ed.), Iola, WI: Krause Publications, ISBN 1-4402-0387-3, ISBN 978-1-4402-0387-9 (2009), p. 387

Here are some better photos of the knife's blade markings and Pommel. It appears to be a nut or maybe a threaded cap of some sort. If you look closely, you can see a seam at the bottom of the small round cap. So yes, I would think the tang was possibly modified with a piece of threaded metal welded onto the end. The more I learn about this thing the more I want to possibly restore it to it's original beauty.

KA-BAR-Collage.jpg
 
So....all of this has been so exciting that I just ordered 2 new KA-BAR knives (the one posted here is the only KA-BAR I currently own. I already have a lot decent Buck knives so, time to splurge a little).
So I ordered the Full Size USMC Straight Edge Fighting knife (Leather w/USMC Leather Sheath) and the Full Size Straight Edge F/U in Black (with the Kraton handle). The USMC will probably not be used but I'm gonna use crap outta that black one. :D

Thanks again to everyone for all the great information, MUCH appreciated.
 
I really would like to discourage attempts at returning a family heirloom to "it's original beauty". So often it ends badly and it really can't be undone. If your really serious about pursuing this, I'd suggest you visit the forum "usmilitariaforum.com" and go to the sub-forum "preservation". I'd be most concerned with the best things to do with the hilt. The combination of aluminum and lexan would bother me. I feel pretty comfortable on how to deal with steel. But I can see where what works best for the aluminum may be bad for the lexan, and vise versa.
To be very general here, when dealing with these old items "less is usually better".
The nicks, scratches, and other blemishes are part of the knifes character. It's part of it's 60 year story. It earned them.
For the blade I'd only be concerned with active rust. People have many variations on this. I like to use a gun bore cleaner "hoppe's #9" and a tooth brush, stiff shop rag. That will usually get the job done, but if I need more I don't use anything more aggressive than #0000 steel wool. I'd wrap the hilt in cellophane with some painters tape to keep things away from the lexan. Maybe someone here has experience with your hilt material. JMHO, I'd collect as much information as I could from different sources first before I decided what I'd do.
 
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Absolutely Sac,
I hear horror stories all the time about restorations gone bad on all kinds of things. I am not talking about a complete "Make it look like new" makeover. I also agree on the "nicks, scratches, and blemishes" statement. They don't bother me at all. What I am most interested in doing is trying to put a point back on the tip and possibly get the metal ground and/or buffed out the best it can be and protected from further damage of rust/corrosion. And last but not least, explore the possibility of removing the pommel, removing the rings one by one, keeping them in order and cleaning up the tang and re-doing the coloring, then cleaning up the inside of the rings and replacing them back so that the view of the red colored tang is restored. And finally just simply buffing everything out one final time. Believe me, I have no disillusions of trying to make it look like it was just un-boxed.

As always, thanks for the input.
 
WarrenD said:
Absolutely Sac,
I hear horror stories all the time about restorations gone bad on all kinds of things. I am not talking about a complete "Make it look like new" makeover. I also agree on the "nicks, scratches, and blemishes" statement. They don't bother me at all. What I am most interested in doing is trying to put a point back on the tip and possibly get the metal ground and/or buffed out the best it can be and protected from further damage of rust/corrosion. And last but not least, explore the possibility of removing the pommel, removing the rings one by one, keeping them in order and cleaning up the tang and re-doing the coloring, then cleaning up the inside of the rings and replacing them back so that the view of the red colored tang is restored. And finally just simply buffing everything out one final time. Believe me, I have no disillusions of trying to make it look like it was just un-boxed.

As always, thanks for the input.
Click to expand...

I would not recommend doing anything more than wiping it down with a little mineral oil and putting it on display. Every mark on that knife was put there by your farther. They deserve to be there. If you start buffing you will only be removing material, inducing additional wear, in an attempt to make the thing shiny looking. It is not a restoration, it is just further damage.

n2s

edited for typo: Will also add - when you have a knife that has lost half of its original finish, you should note that it still retains part of that finish. That is what you will lose when you attempt to refinish the knife. You lose whatever is left along with any chance of demonstrating that the knife is a genuine rather than just a likeness of the real thing.
 
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WarrenD, I suggest you go to www.Grunt.com and search for a Ka-Bar knife wood presentation stand to display your father's knife.

And do what not2sharp says, leave the knife as is and just wipe it down with a little mineral oil.

It's a family heirloom, cherish the history of the knife and what it symbolizes.

Semper Fi to you and your Dad.
 
I thought this was an interesting discovery and wondered what others thought about this. As you might have read in my original posts on the KA-BAR my father handed down to me, I was, for years unable to find any photos online that were even remotely close in appearance to his KA-BAR. Even with very recent 2016 searches, nothing. Since these posts I have actually purchased 4 new KA-BARs and 4 fixed blade bucks. The reason I mention this is because once again, tonight I searched online for new KA-BAR and Buck knives I might like to purchase, and I found this new 2016 Buck General 120 for sale. Don't know how many were made but there is only ONE "left" at this time (WAY too costly for me to consider). Besides the EXTREMELY similar appearance of the handle, it even mentions the "Buck Custom Shop made with vintage 1950's style clear Lucite handle". I was just thinking how coincidental it was that I could not find a single similar knife handle for years of searching and then I post photos of my dad's knife and suddenly, 2-3 months later, Buck builds one that looks almost identical.
Take a look at these pics and compare them to my dad's KA-BAR, I'd be very interested in any comments/opinions.
Thanks.
71ksELG0A6L._SL1500_.jpg

61eJK9xEk7L._SL1500_.jpg
 
The knife being a theatre knife is correct. The blade was made during WWII and like most the leather probably rotted off while in the tropics. These were not done by troops in the field but by Navy engineers sitting off shore with nothing to do. They had the materials and machinery to do this type of work. So the knife was produced during the Korea War and most likely is a one a kind if not 1 of 6 or so. There are people that collect those and I have heard of a book about theatre knives but I don't know the name of it. The handle material is off of old airplane part's remanufactured into what you have which gives it the one of a kind or very limited status. It was never a presentation knife, but if you write down the history of the knife and what info you found out about it and kept it with the knife for future generations the knife, even now, is a lot more valuable than a presentation knife, which there would be hundreds or even thousands of. Nice knife clean it gently DON'T redo or change anything on it, regardless what anybody says. You have an extremely rare knife with a rare history. 99% of these knives were brought home and given to the kids and got destroyed so charish it and enjoy. You have one the most unique knives there is and it has a verifiable history.
 
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