Ignorance vs Lack of Knowledge

Kohai999

Second Degree Cutter
Joined
Jul 15, 2003
Messages
12,554
Everything posited here is opinion..it's opinion based upon experience...you can find value in it or dismiss it at your own level and interest.

Once upon a Time ago(1986?) in upstate NY there was a conference I attended in Ashokan, NY.

Whilst there, my real knife education began and the differences between ignorance and lack of knowledge were laid bare.

This was at a time when terms like "grain refinement/orientation", "edge packing" and "thermal cycling" were being thrown around by many bladesmiths and the collectors would just nod like bobblehead dolls. The more convincing "showmen" seemed to do quite well with sales.

Now here's the funny thing about perception. While I was absolutely perceived by the "presenting faculty" (Dan Maragni, Phil Baldwin, Gary Barnes, Wayne Valachovich, Tim Zowada....) as a "newb" lacking knowledge, I was never treated as an "ignoramous"......(Dan remembers quite well my metallic gold 1984 300ZX Turbo blasting Peter Gabriel's "Sledgehammer"....but not much else).....I didn't know ANYTHING!!!!!

And came away from that conference with some serious knowledge, converting ignorance to something better, more useful and applicable.

Which is frankly where it happens. The conversion from ignorance to knowledge happens at the core of it, where those who have some knowledge gather to share it with like minds and those fortunate enough to be part of it absorb it through osmosis, because those fertile yet untapped minds don't know enough to discriminate between shinola and sheite.

You have to go into it knowing that you don't know anything useful, but have a willingness to learn.

Along the way, you encounter like minds, forging their own path and direction.

Joe Paranee, a fellow woods boy, who has taken it so far beyond that it defies reason...Joe is my go to for hunting, survival or knife-fighting tips and am confidant that he tells the real-deal, because amongst his references, if it's shite, it is useless, and will be publicly scorned as such.

Matt Diskin-Matt will tell me in one simple sentence if a knife is good or bad. If I need some sort of education, he will provide it....he is my brother from another Mother and guide as to what is, or is not mechanically superior.

Last, but not least, by any stretch, David Mirabile, who is a Boston raised Alaskan, and the most hardcore f'er I know to make a knife from chosen materials and create greatness.

So, I realize that most don't have the opportunity to glean from my harvest of awesome.....find your own over time, same as i did.

Separate ignorance from lack of knowledge.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Steven:

An old saying comes to mind: "When the student is ready, the teacher will arrive."

V/R,
TK
 
Exactly!!! Ignorant is not always a derogatory term, it is, rather a state representing lack of knowledge. Context is everything.

Paul
 
Wait

You mean if a bladesmith quenches a blade and it's not pointing in a northern direction the molecular structure will not align correctly and throw off the Chi in the blade ?????? ????
 
apart from scratching an itch that I still don't entirely understand, my interest in cutlery is motivated by a desire to learn. There is so much room for specialization that it's hard to know where to start, but I've been really fortunate in getting to know people who've taught me about things that I didn't know I'd be interested in, and learning about things like that is great, like mental yoga. You gotta stretch that mind if you wanna maximize it

Trite phrase for the day; knowing that you don't know everything you want to think you know is fundamental to getting to know more

another cheesy line for you; a mind is like a parachute- it only works when opened
 
Wait

You mean if a bladesmith quenches a blade and it's not pointing in a northern direction the molecular structure will not align correctly and throw off the Chi in the blade ?????? ????

See, that's just ig'nant. You gotta quench it pointing in the direction the Earth is spinning EXCEPT in the Southern hemisphere, where it's backwards. The toilets in Australia swirl the opposite direction for a reason. It's everyone's job to help keep bad information from spreading as fact.
 
different point.
Ashokan has a meeting every year. I am there every year (I met my man Matt there, as well as many others).
If you want to learn more in a weekend than you otherwise will in 6 months of serious effort on your own, come to Ashokan.

I will be the dude talking about Chinese stuff and probably sleeping in a tent down by the forging area.
kc
 
I'm going to Ashokan next time. I can't really afford it but I'll find a way because I don't know nuthin'.
 
Thread: Ignorance vs Lack of Knowledge


Everything posited here is opinion..it's opinion based upon experience...you can find value in it or dismiss it at your own level and interest.

Once upon a Time ago(1986?) in upstate NY there was a conference I attended in Ashokan, NY.

Whilst there, my real knife education began and the differences between ignorance and lack of knowledge were laid bare.

This was at a time when terms like "grain refinement/orientation", "edge packing" and "thermal cycling" were being thrown around by many bladesmiths and the collectors would just nod like bobblehead dolls. The more convincing "showmen" seemed to do quite well with sales.

Now here's the funny thing about perception. While I was absolutely perceived by the "presenting faculty" (Dan Maragni, Phil Baldwin, Gary Barnes, Wayne Valachovich, Tim Zowada....) as a "newb" lacking knowledge, I was never treated as an "ignoramous"......(Dan remembers quite well my metallic gold 1984 300ZX Turbo blasting Peter Gabriel's "Sledgehammer"....but not much else).....I didn't know ANYTHING!!!!!

And came away from that conference with some serious knowledge, converting ignorance to something better, more useful and applicable.

Which is frankly where it happens. The conversion from ignorance to knowledge happens at the core of it, where those who have some knowledge gather to share it with like minds and those fortunate enough to be part of it absorb it through osmosis, because those fertile yet untapped minds don't know enough to discriminate between shinola and sheite.

You have to go into it knowing that you don't know anything useful, but have a willingness to learn.

Along the way, you encounter like minds, forging their own path and direction.

Joe Paranee, a fellow woods boy, who has taken it so far beyond that it defies reason...Joe is my go to for hunting, survival or knife-fighting tips and am confidant that he tells the real-deal, because amongst his references, if it's shite, it is useless, and will be publicly scorned as such.

Matt Diskin-Matt will tell me in one simple sentence if a knife is good or bad. If I need some sort of education, he will provide it....he is my brother from another Mother and guide as to what is, or is not mechanically superior.

Last, but not least, by any stretch, David Mirabile, who is a Boston raised Alaskan, and the most hardcore f'er I know to make a knife from chosen materials and create greatness.

So, I realize that most don't have the opportunity to glean from my harvest of awesome.....find your own over time, same as i did.

Separate ignorance from lack of knowledge.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson


Exactly!!! Ignorant is not always a derogatory term, it is, rather a state representing lack of knowledge. Context is everything.

Paul


ignorant

[ig-ner-uh nt]

adjective

1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned


Dictionary.com



I find this thread . . . ironic.
 
I find this thread . . . ironic.[/QUOTE]

I find your response......... ambiguous. You can look that one up also.

Paul
 
I had to do some reflection recently for one of those trainings they sometimes make managers go through. This one has turned out to be really good though. The reflection was when we were asked about what our passion is. I guess I just had never thought about it, and in the end I came up with knowledge. I love learning. Everything. Wisdom is intelligence applied to knowledge. You can be smart and not know anything and therefor have no wisdom. There are few things I find more disappointing than when somebody becomes unwilling to learn.

I had a friend who was a brilliant rifle maker, literally 60 years metalsmithing (no wood), and he was always willing to share his knowledge with others. I had a conversation about it with him once. Me with "aren't you bothered by people copying your work" etc. he told me two things that I thought showed both his character, and why he was as good as he was
1. By sharing his techniques with others and how he had done something, maybe they would improve on it and he'd learn in return. And 2. If they weren't ready for the knowledge they wouldn't be able to use it yet. when they were able to use it they would have earned it.

Every smith on here who has done a WIP or explained how they did something, thank you. I may never even try making a knife, but I enjoy and appreciate knowing how you have done it.

Red
 
In ignorance lies bliss. I'll bet some makers and collectors really liked a piece until someone showed them the flaws. Knowledge isn't always truth and the only thing wrong with ignorance is not admitting it. To paraphrase Bernard Levine, an expert knows what he knows and admits when he doesn't know. My dog is ignorant but she's happier than a lot of knowledgeable humans.
 
There is NO skill, no trade, no body of knowledge more obstinate than understanding and responding to human behavior.

To be completely direct has the power of effectiveness at the expense of likability.

To be completely 'nice' has immediate gratification to the listener at the expense of clarity.

Every person in the world is unique, however every person in the world responds similarly, too.

In posing hard questions I was once taught:

1. How do I want to feel after I say what I want? (This is easy)

2. How do I want the viewer to feel? (This is hard)

The outcome is decided by the intention. Direct or Nice? Wise or Educate?

Good thread.
 
In a nutshell....to me, ignorance is willful. The information is out there, the education is out there....you are just too lazy, stupid or stubborn to incorporate it into your knowledge.

Lack of knowledge is just that.....you don't know where or how to find it....once you do, you are educated on that particular area where you once lacked knowledge. Intent and effort is implied and (often) appreciated.

Many got the idea, Paul, Joseph and Sam certainly did....heck, it seems just about everyone did.

Maybe Ken(The Virginian) is ignorant? I don't know, only he can answer that question.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
In a nutshell....to me, ignorance is willful. The information is out there, the education is out there....you are just too lazy, stupid or stubborn to incorporate it into your knowledge.

Lack of knowledge is just that.....you don't know where or how to find it....once you do, you are educated on that particular area where you once lacked knowledge. Intent and effort is implied and (often) appreciated.

Many got the idea, Paul, Joseph and Sam certainly did....heck, it seems just about everyone did.

Maybe Ken(The Virginian) is ignorant? I don't know, only he can answer that question.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Maybe. I've been called worse. By my wife. :) And there are worse things than being ignorant. :p

But hey, at least I know what the word ignorant actually means in standard English (as opposed to what "it means to me"). So at least I'm not ignorant about that. YMMV.
 
It is true, ignorance it'is lack of knowledge.
But lack of knowledge assumes admitting and the will to fill that lack with the effort to learn, while the ignorance sounds more like a state of mind unaware of those lacking holes
 
In the early 60's I got my hands on a "knife Magazine" and my imagination soared!
I fell in love but was also extremely frustrated as I new nothing about or nobody actually
related to making MODERN custom knives.
This feeling bothered me for many years until in 1999-2000 digital photography was
good enough and computers were strong enough to allow me to dream/plan doing a
book on modern FOLDING KNIVES.

That was the beginning of a 14 year adventure that got me involved in Custom Knives
and resulted with 12 large volumes with detailed information and hand tailored
illustrations of the best knives made in recent years with the personal stories on
many of the prominent knifemakers of recent years.

So I began with a passion but zero knowledge and learned all the time from the
experts... When I had an idea for a section in one of my books that I could not
research myself (being thousands of miles from where it all happens) I asked
experts like Don Guild or Steven Garsson to do the research and writeup
while I dealt with the illustrations.

Getting deeply involved without actually seeing a Master Knifemaker making
a knife bothered me quite a lot too. So I came up with the idea of creating 4 books
on individual Master knife makers representing 4 different knife making disciplines.


I lived with each of them for 7-8 days photographing in detail their WIP and everything
connected to their everyday life. IT WAS A GREAT LEARNING EXPERIENCE!!!

So, even though I have gained quite a lot of first-hand knowledge I cannot say
that I am an expert and never will be, I am not IGNORANT any more
and have acquired more knowledge on a subject I fell in love with as a boy,
more than I ever imagined possible, living so far from where everything is happening...

AND ENJOYED EVERY MINUTE DOING THIS!!

All the best,
David Darom (ddd)
 
Last edited:
Wait

You mean if a bladesmith quenches a blade and it's not pointing in a northern direction the molecular structure will not align correctly and throw off the Chi in the blade ?????? ????

Exactly correct, as usual.
 
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