I'll never understand this (pricing)...

Chiro75

Chiro75

Joined
Feb 4, 1999
Messages
5,786
I was looking at knives on Nordic Knives today and they had a knife by Phil Hartsfield, pictured below (courtesy of NK's website). I haven't personally held Phil's knives, and I'm not trying to denigrate his work or be a jerk, but $800 for that seems crazy to me. I know he has a following, and collector's, and I'm sure it's a great knife, but am I the only one who sees a discrepency in the price of that style of knife? I guess this is what the name part of the knife business is all about. Even with my skills, I could go home and produce the exact same knife, tonight, probably in 3 hours or less including tempering time, etc. But I'd be lucky to get someone to spend $50 on mine. More power to him, I say!

CF_706.jpg
 
Yeah, supply and demand is a strange phenomenon :D
I looked around a lot, read what a lot of folks had to say. Even felt insulted a few times when I got to comparing things!
In the end I pretty much decided to ignore all that and just set my prices. I get what I can for em, and try to make it what I consider a good value.
Thats the nice thing about the business. Your not the only one who wouldn't pay $800 for that, and if you want to you can probably sell those other folks something similar for $50 :D I sure can't fault the guy for taking what he can get.
Its a wide world. Its hard not to get insulted when you go into the custom forum and read someone saying that you can't get a "good custom knife" for under $1000. But you have to remember that their idea of a "good custom knfie" is one thats pretty and LOOKS like it would perform well, while sitting in their safe. Personally, I don't have the skill he does, but my interest is more like bob dozier. Spending a month on some fancy pants thing that will sit in a safe just doesn't interest me near as much as knocking out hunters, folders, and utility knives :D So I'm not competing with those guys in the custom forum anyhow, and there's no reason to worry about it.
 
Thats the price of half the knife I guess. I did the Vegas Show and it was in the same building as the Antique Arms and Collectable show. I saw a few Loveless knives that were way up there. I can't remember for sure but seems to me one was $39,000.. Others at 28,000. and some down from that. I remember towards the end of the show someone bought the whole collection for something out of this world.
 
Hey Steve...

Yaa I hear ya on that..

I guess the more power to him...

Personally,, I have a problem with my own work and what I charge... Could I get more for my work,, maybe! However I wouldn't feel right doing it...

I made this piece a few years ago

cmhbranch1.jpg


which was 6+ months in the making and charged $6000.00. today I wouldn't even consider making it for less than $15,000.. It was just too much work...

So,, ya,, it's a hard thing to do, I guess if you can sleep at night, and look yourself in the mirror in the morning knowing you've done right by people, then you'll be OK..I just can't be a greedy person myself, and still live with myself...

And please Don't get me wrong,, I'm not saying Phil's work isn't worth the money,, I have No idea what went into that knife.. for all I know he could have made the steel himself..
It's just not for me, even at $80.00

ttyle

Eric...
 
I have a friend who LOVES Phil's work. I don't fully understand it either, but I know there are a lot of devotees to what Phil and Phil do with steel. I know they cut like crazy because of the zero grinds, but honestly....for $800?

Nitin
 
Its all in the name, everybody else can get the same steel, grind, HT but you need the name to command the big bucks. Sell them for what you can get or what the market will bare. just make them good.
 
..guess what..the guy must know what he is doing. He must be pretty well trusted by the buyers of his knives.
I've been involved in alot of "professions" in my life...some required more "professional courtesy" than others.
Knocking a guy thats getting good prices for his skills does nothing but make you look bad..period. :barf:
Momma always said if you don't have anything good to say, don't say it..
 
It is worth what ever someone is willing to pay. I wouldn't have a Picasso hanging on the wall of my dirt floor basement but I sure wouldn't mind having one for sale.

RL
 
well said, Roger.



Another thing to consider is that it's being sold second-hand. That will always include 20-30% markup.

So, $800.....but $160-240 right off the top to nordicknives.com



I have santokus that I sell for $175. To sell them on Blade Gallery, or through a retailer would mean adding 25-35% (raising it up to $220-240), or taking a hit in profit. Suddenly pricing becomes even more complicated when you consider your venue.
 
This is one of those areas where customer's perception - the market - sets the price. Many of us could make as good a knife as Phill but few if any of us have paid the dues he has. Once we've been around as long and done as many shows, and if our knives stand the test of time and use, we'll likely have as strong a following.

This is why purveyors say new makers should do their best work and price it low. That presumably will get more people to buy them, which, if the work is good, should lead to greater name recognition over time.

I find that I can sell everything I can make under $300 but no matter what it's hard to go over that. Except suddenly, after having had a few photos in Blade, people who call don't flinch so much at higher prices as they used to... That's a very good feeling and gives me hope for the future. I'm just going to keep trying to do better all the time and price them at what I think is a fair price. My wife constantly harps at me that my prices are too low, and the dealers constantly find subtle ways to suggest I could lower my prices... :rolleyes:

For what it's worth, I set my price to dealers a small percentage below my retail price, and they typically end up pricing the work above my retail price. I think we both win; I get more business from them and they don't compete directly with me. Having a couple of good dealers on your side is a good thing - they can do more to get you exposure than anyone else, particularly if they're passionate about your work.
 
I'm not knocking Phil and what he does. Like I said, I haven't personally experienced his knives, and so I don't know firsthand, but for a knife that has no work on profiling, is not of special steel, and has simple grinds and a simple finish and no handle scales... it just amazes me. Like I said, more power to him! Anything that is bought and sold is "worth" what people are willing to pay, so if he can sell it for twice that much and someone wants to buy it, then all the better.

I guess the knife world isn't much different from the art world in that regard. How often do people walk into a gallery and go "Eh. I could do that..." and maybe they could and maybe they couldn't, but that signature on the canvas is what demands the price. Anyway, I just wanted to be clear I'm not knocking Phil. I guess I'm knocking the market more than anything.

I was thinking the same thing about Cold Steel's recent line of high end folders. These things are $350-$400. You can get a REALLY great tactical folder from a true custom maker for the same price, so why would you buy a production piece, even if it's a nice production piece? Whatever trips their triggers, I guess.

I like Phil's knives, I fact, so I didn't mean any offense to him!
 
I think time is what causes the high prices. In other words look at the makers who's knives demand high prices and you'll see that they have been around for a very long time. It doesn't hurt to have publicity either. Remember the power of advertisement. The more people hear or read about a particular maker, the better the chance of demand for his or her knives. I think the most important part to being sucessful is to take care of your customers. Go out of your way to take the best care of their needs. Be honest and treat them as you would want to be treated if you were the buyer. I'm a firm believer of what goes around comes around.
Scott
 
It's so crazy to see Moran and Loveless knives going for 5 digits. Of course, these are being sold by dealers and collectors. I wonder what these guys think when a knife they sold decades ago for $150 or whatever sells for $20,000?

I think those situations are the true "art knives." Let's hope Cliff Stamp doesn't get his hands on a Moran or Loveless and start chopping up concrete block with it! :D
 
I was told awhile back that Bob Loveless was asked about the prices of his knives on the secondary market and his comment was I couldn't even afford to buy one on my knives. At the first Moran hammer-in they auctioned off two leaves that he hammer out in about 10 min. for $1500.00. When someone told him what they went for he was shaking his head in disbelief.
Scott
 
LOL! They're probably thinking "Damn, I wish I would've kept that thing!"

Edited: The Mad Reputation Points Coward struck again. Hmm... Oh my, I WONDER who it could be?! LOL!
 
It's true, you're buying much more than the utility of the knife. It is afterall, collecting that many of us are doing...we dont base our purchases solely on utility. If I did, I would only have 2-3 knives. That of course, is not the case. :)

I have met both Phils (father and son) and they were nothing but polite, helpful gentlemen. They have earned their keep, as Dave said.

Nitin
 
As already mentioned many times here before me, he can charge that much, because somebody will pay it.
 
I do believe your correct, when you say the buyer is purchasing the makers reputation when paying that kind of money for such a simple design. I would think for that much money though, you might expect to get a bit more knife.
Many makers, like myself, have spent a lifetime developeing the skills used in the makeing of knives. So, when someone says; he or she has paid there dues and deserves, money, recognition, applause and all that. I set back and wonder how many more dues they have paid than the rest of us. I take one look at these well used hands of mine and figure I am all paid up.
Fred
Sorry Phil, when I first looked I thought it was a blank that had not been ground. The eyes must be failing too. :D :D :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
 
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