I'm a big knife guy that's starting to be drawn to the idea of a small axe or hatchet

[Silas]

Many years ago I watched a few "survival/bushcraft" videos and the guy in front of the camera had a big knife with a 10" blade. He preached that that was the way to go. So that's the way I went.

Well now it's many years and many big knives later.

I don't know how it started but over the last couple or three weeks I've been being drawn toward the idea of using a nice small axe or hatchet instead of the large knife for a camping, bushcraft, or a survival situation.

I've particularly been looking at the GB Small Forest Axe, the GB Small Hatchet, and the Vaughan Supersportsman's sub-zero axe.



I guess some people are going to prefer a big knife and some people are going to prefer a small hatchet. I think everything has its place.

I'm here looking for some guidance, or thoughts, or experiences on this subject.

 

[Hacked]

As luck would have it I just did a lengthy comparison between the GB Small Hatchet and Vaughan Sportsman's Axe. I highly recommend that you draw out the mesuments I listed in the comparison as I find a lot of folks are extremely surprised by the size of these two axes. That said for a light weight option I absolutely love my Vaughan. Both are excellent and capable tools.

Can't help you with the SFA, but I do have a Kelly Hatchet recently hafted on a 19" handle that is an interesting size. I can see the appeal for camp use, and I'm planning to use mine on an upcoming trip unless I assemble something else that I find more appealing in the meantime. Plan is to try out a 1.25 lbs hatchet head with a 22" handle similar to camp axes that were available once upon a time.

 

[Silas]

As luck would have it I just did a lengthy comparison between the GB Small Hatchet and Vaughan Sportsman's Axe. I highly recommend that you draw out the mesuments I listed in the comparison as I find a lot of folks are extremely surprised by the size of these two axes. That said for a light weight option I absolutely love my Vaughan. Both are excellent and capable tools.

Can't help you with the SFA, but I do have a Kelly Hatchet recently hafted on a 19" handle that is an interesting size. I can see the appeal for camp use, and I'm planning to use mine on an upcoming trip unless I assemble something else that I find more appealing in the meantime. Plan is to try out a 1.25 lbs hatchet head with a 22" handle similar to camp axes that were available once upon a time.

I've read through that thread twice and your write up is the reason those two particular models are in my line-up. Great pictures too.

I'm hoping to get one of my own soon to try out.

 

[Operator1975]

I am not a bushcraft guy in any sense of the word, but when it comes to basic wood tasks/chores, I really like a hb on a 24+ handle, or as of late I have a Belknap boys axe at 2.25 lbs on 28 inch handle, that will do anything I want it to do, excluding feather sticks, which I will not do.

There are many options out there, not sure if there is one magic answer - but good luck and let us know what the outcome is!

 

[Hacked]

Personally if I was just starting out knowing what I know now I think the route I would take would be three axes. A vintage boys axe much like Operator1975 described. I have two and they are all the axe I will ever really need in all truth. They are great for at home use and car camping. A vintage hatchet on a 19-22" handle for a packable camp axe, others may perfer the more common 14-16" handle. And finally a mini hatchet for those times where you want a camp hatchet but weight is a concern, or you just need something that will slip into a small daybag or into your pocket at camp. The boys axe is really optional depending on the trips you will take, and how much you will use an axe at home.

Going the vintage route you could easily put together a boys axe and a SFA sized camp axe for $30-$40 each. The downside being that you would need to put the effort into cleaning, profiling, and hafting the axes. The good news is that these tasks are not all that difficult, and in doing so you build pride in ownership and learn to properly maintain an axe through the course of its life.

Mann Edge Tool Co True American 2.25lbs boys axe

Kelly Woodslasher 1.25lbs hatchet on 19" house axe handle

 

[Lieblad]

.... .

 

[Square_peg]

All this is based your original premise that this is for bushcraft.

How will you use it? From a day pack, a car or a multi-night pack?

From a car? Bring both a boys axe and a 14"16" hatchet.

Day pack or weekend backpacking? Bring a claw hatchet.

Backpacking? Fiskars X7 with a nail notch cut into it. Minimalist backpackers go with only the smallest knife or even no knife at all. But that means no bushcrafting. If you want to stay light but still have bushcraft tools then a Mora Companion paired with a Fiskars X7 is a pretty good combination.

And in all cases consider bringing a folding saw like a Silky or Tajima.

 

[cityofthesouth]

I'd second Peg on this one - we axe people can't suggest just one axe unless we are given specific parameters, because you need at least 3 ... or 5 ... I've lost track at this point.

Something I always bring up is your personal enjoyment. Do you "want" a specific product? I know it's ugly American consumerism at it's finest, but it seems people have a really hard time admitting that they just like and thing, and want it (which is the real honest truth behind a large majority of purchases IMO). Buy the thing you want and go enjoy yourself. Now, that isn't the case for a lot of folks. They need a tool to do the activity they enjoy and so they buy one and are done.

Other brands that I know get a lot of air time are Condor and Husqvarna.

One thing I can say from my own testing (big knives compared to similarly weighted small hatchets) is that when you take up an axe that is roughly the same weight as a large knife - so we're talking a total weight of probably no more than ~1-1/2lbs - then in many ways the capabilities are similar. You probably baton the knife for splitting and while you may not have to with the hatchet, you may still, you'll just get better efficiency (depending on the wood). But pound for pound, I think the primary difference is that all your cutting power is concentrated in a much shorter cutting edge. My Wildlife Hatchet is about 1-1/4lbs so it's going to be in the neighborhood of large knives. When you look at it like that, you can do basically everything a knife can (save for maybe the extra reach) but in a more compact package with the benefits associated with the concentration of power. I think you will find carving and other small tasks much easier with the little hatchet compared to the knife.

If you're willing to go up to 2lbs and surpass large knife weights, then you BEGIN to enter the realm of much higher performance than large knives, without a major weight penalty. The SFA and other axes in the 2lb range are nice do-all tools. Easy to carry, split much better than any knife could ever hope to, still light enough that you can use them like a knife, etc.

Beyond this you are in real axe territory - might be a little too heavy to be carving with but now you step into serious work and wood processing. So you loose some of the lighter tasks as you go up in weight, and gain some heavy duty tasks at the same time. The 2lb total weight range (not just head weight) +/- a half pound is a useful well rounded tool that a guy can carry around.

 

[mcswood]

I just recently picked up a Husqvarna Carpenters Axe for it's
size, weight and of coarse it's look. It needed a little finishing to make it
nice. But now it's a fine hand forged Swedish axe that cost $50.
I may alter the edge and make it better for multi purpose.
Most importantly, I chose it based on what I want it do do.
It can't replace a knife anymore than a knife can replace an axe.
It's a fine line between going lighter or going better equipped.
One makes getting somewhere easier the other makes it easier
once you get there. Take the big knife and an axe if you have use for both.
Mike

 

[Silas]

One thing I can say from my own testing (big knives compared to similarly weighted small hatchets) is that when you take up an axe that is roughly the same weight as a large knife - so we're talking a total weight of probably no more than ~1-1/2lbs - then in many ways the capabilities are similar. You probably baton the knife for splitting and while you may not have to with the hatchet, you may still, you'll just get better efficiency (depending on the wood). But pound for pound, I think the primary difference is that all your cutting power is concentrated in a much shorter cutting edge. My Wildlife Hatchet is about 1-1/4lbs so it's going to be in the neighborhood of large knives. When you look at it like that, you can do basically everything a knife can (save for maybe the extra reach) but in a more compact package with the benefits associated with the concentration of power. I think you will find carving and other small tasks much easier with the little hatchet compared to the knife.

If you're willing to go up to 2lbs and surpass large knife weights, then you BEGIN to enter the realm of much higher performance than large knives, without a major weight penalty. The SFA and other axes in the 2lb range are nice do-all tools. Easy to carry, split much better than any knife could ever hope to, still light enough that you can use them like a knife, etc.

Beyond this you are in real axe territory - might be a little too heavy to be carving with but now you step into serious work and wood processing. So you loose some of the lighter tasks as you go up in weight, and gain some heavy duty tasks at the same time. The 2lb total weight range (not just head weight) +/- a half pound is a useful well rounded tool that a guy can carry around.

Very informative. Thanks for posting this.

 

[Hickory n steel]

Find the active thread " the mini hatchet " and you'll learn what you need to know about the Vaughan sub zero ( and the ones they used to produce for craftsman ) the steel in the Vaughan is actually pretty decent ( I believe 1085 ) and for 20$ you can't go wrong for an American made hatchet ( if your willing to take on a day or potentially half day project ) they really do chop well for their size ( 8oz head and 11in oal ) and even after making a sheath and rehanging mine I only have Maybe 35$ total at the most invested in it ( 20$+shipping, and $6.50 for the new handle, The leather I already had ) so it's definitely a great value, and there's no need to buy a high priced gransfors brooks mini. ( the fact that your interested in it over a large camp knife in the first place tells me that it's probably the size of axe you need, and if not you didn't spend over 100$ for it , plus they're still great to have when you don't think you need an axe) just pair it with a smaller fixed blade for food/game...ect and a 3 blade pocketknife for more detailed carving tasks ( you should still end up with less weight than a big heavy knife , plus the weight is distributed around )

 

[Gaston444]

I've compared both knives and a hatchet extensively, and while the hatchet is indeed more efficient, it is comparatively a very cumbersome tool to carry, because it is bulky in two dimensions, and also because of the very lopsided weight: It is just a ugly tool, and in my opinion has no place on a trip taken for pleasure... It is also less versatile and nothing to look at compared to a knife...

If you are really tired I would say the risk of injury seems noticeably higher with a hatchet, although an injury with a sharp knife, if rarer, would likely be much deeper and far, far more serious...: The most likely serious injury with a knife would be a complete loss of grip or fall of the knife, where the knife is bounced back towards you. An accident with a hatchet would likely occur from a glancing blow, but at least there the hatchet is still being held by the hand, and is also much less sharp, so injuries may be more common, but serious injuries far less common...: All things considered, I would give the edge to the hatchet on safety...

A major lack of versatility of the hatchet is the short edge, which makes it useless to clear a path. A large knife, while of course not as good as a machete doing this, still will do a reasonable job, provided one understands the dangers of self injury, well known to cops who commonly see self-injured would-be assassins... For path making this is especially true if the knife is short and/or lacks edge finesse, and so is swung loosely by the end of the handle to give it some speed to cut finer brush: Encounter the odd stouter limb, and the grip on the knife may be broken...

If anything, the picture above really demonstrate the inanity of bulky outdoor fixed blades under 8", and the absolutely tremendous loss in useability of a 7.4" blade compared to an 8.9" blade: Barely 1.5" between them, and a complete world of difference... 10" plus blades are typically even better, but are getting close to the limit.

Gaston

 

[David Martin]

sonofthesouth, I'm in your camp. Thanks for wording it in that manner. The axe has much greater concentrated force in it's swing. By working with it and becoming adept with it, one can learn how to use it for more detailed cutting as well. Such as skinning, fire sticks, cleaning fish, ect.. A hatchet with a nice curve to it's face can handle these chores with the right edge. On a wilderness canoe trip I carved out a paddle in fairly short order with my Estwing. A large knife could have done it but not with near the same efficiency. On trail clearing, sure the machete or long knife would work better. But they carry bulky and require a much heavier leather sheath. Whereas the hatchet is more compact and requires less leather in it's sheath. Many purchase the long knife so it can be used for chopping but I don't think it stands well with a decent 14" handled 1 3/4 lb. hatchet. Plus, the knife will cost considerable more than a 30-40$ hatchet. Just my experience. DM

 

[Hickory n steel]

I've compared both knives and a hatchet extensively, and while the hatchet is indeed more efficient, it is comparatively a very cumbersome tool to carry, because it is bulky in two dimensions, and also because of the very lopsided weight: It is just a ugly tool, and in my opinion has no place on a trip taken for pleasure... It is also less versatile and nothing to look at compared to a knife...

If you are really tired I would say the risk of injury seems noticeably higher with a hatchet, although an injury with a sharp knife, if rarer, would likely be much deeper and far, far more serious...: The most likely serious injury with a knife would be a complete loss of grip or fall of the knife, where the knife is bounced back towards you. An accident with a hatchet would likely occur from a glancing blow, but at least there the hatchet is still being held by the hand, and is also much less sharp, so injuries may be more common, but serious injuries far less common...: All things considered, I would give the edge to the hatchet on safety...

A major lack of versatility of the hatchet is the short edge, which makes it useless to clear a path. A large knife, while of course not as good as a machete doing this, still will do a reasonable job, provided one understands the dangers of self injury, well known to cops who commonly see self-injured would-be assassins... For path making this is especially true if the knife is short and/or lacks edge finesse, and so is swung loosely by the end of the handle to give it some speed to cut finer brush: Encounter the odd stouter limb, and the grip on the knife may be broken...

If anything, the picture above really demonstrate the inanity of bulky outdoor fixed blades under 8", and the absolutely tremendous loss in useability of a 7.4" blade compared to an 8.9" blade: Barely 1.5" between them, and a complete world of difference... 10" plus blades are typically even better, but are getting close to the limit.

Gaston

An ugly tool ??? ( a fiskars or a gransfors maybe ) but have you ever See a nice vintage Kelly Michigan pattern axe with phantom bevels, and a beautiful natural patina hung on a nice slim curvy fawns foot handle ? (Sorry I don't have any pictures of one ) trust me that's a sexy tool

 

[Hacked]

but at least there the hatchet is still being held by the hand, and is also much less sharp Gaston

This in my opinion invalidates everything you just said.

"Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe."

Sorry to the OP for helping to derail your thread. Hopefully we can get back on topic now.

 

[Gaston444]

This in my opinion invalidates everything you just said.

"Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe."

I'm guessing you're the type that thinks that 20 degrees per side is actually an edge?...

I don't, because 20 degrees per side is a ridiculous 40 degree wedge, and that is no edge at all, no matter how much you polish it and show you can shave your face with it, or feather hairs into curls, or whatever useless trick you may think of...

I think an edge begins at around 12-13 degrees per side, and real sharpness begins around 10 per side: The Randall Model 12 you see chopping wood in the picture is set at around 10 degrees per side, scraping up a bit on one side, and has been used as a benchmark mule to compare to all my other knives, so it has around a thousand chops into it if not more, and has never shown any damage other than dulling...

It is true many knives can't take it, with power-burned apexes or bad temper and whatnot, and that is precisely why my 12 is used as a benchmark...

You show me an axe that is 20 degrees inclusive, and it will have nearly no splitting power...: Axes work by splitting, because they have spare momentum to expend into a lateral force, which is why convex edges works for axes, and fail miserably to improve performance on knives...

And don't bother trying to convert me to convex edges on knives: I've tried all the permutations, including zero convex edges, and they are all inferior in performance for any knife use... Out of some factories they do hold their own by being thinner, which is like comparing apple to oranges... Some convex edge proponent even go as far as to claim convex edges cut meat better than V-edges, which goes to show they will say just about anything...

If you are telling me a 10 degree per side axe edge will work better while chopping wood, I'd be curious to see it... I've seen the hillbilly trick of shaving with an axe, and I still don't think their edge bevel is anywhere near the 0.020" edge shoulder that is the standards on Randalls.

Sadly, I think the only person who would contest that a knife should be sharper than any axe is someone who has never seen a truly sharp knife, one with at least a 0.020" bevel and with a 20 degrees inclusive edge...

In a way you are excused, and I understand why you would think knives are not sharper than axes, because most of the time I have to either buy Randalls, a bit narrow in style for me, or completely re-grind thinner the rest of the fixed-blade crap out there...

Gaston

 

[SC T100]

Um...wut?

 

[thunderstick]

I like both knives and small axes. IMO it's pointless to argue one over the other when our early woodsmen realized the benefits of carrying both a belt axe/hawk and a large butcher/hunting/bowie knife. The bowie lent itself more to fighting and the Green River hunting/butcher knives to all-round usage. They both have their purposes.

For a large carry knife I prefer a small machete--10"-14" blade with combination of a slightly tapered clip point (for piercing) and a weighted end (for chopping). I like the Martindale Paratrooper or the Tramontina Latin or Bolo Machetes. They are inexpensive, easily modded, and specifically made for hard striking work unlike some knives which are much more expensive. They take a good edge and touch up easily in the field. The large knife is essentially a camp food processing and trail/camp clearing knife. A knife is superior to a belt axe for these chores.

However a good 1.75-2.25 LB belt axe on a 14"-20" handle in skilled hands is superior for processing camp wood and building structures--hands down. There is no doubt a big knife can perform these chores--just not as efficiently. The sharper thinner knife cannot chop as efficiently because it does not concentrate the force as well nor does it pop out the chips as well and is more likely to stick.

In the end if you are only taking one of these--I'd make my decision based on what I thought my primary needs were.

 

[Hickory n steel]

In that picture you can clearly see the hatchet having chopped deeper than your knife. Plus however thin you make the bit on your axe it will still split better than a knife ( it's the overall profile of the head and cheeks that helps it slit not the thinness of the bit ) have you ever seen a knife with a blade that is convexed in the same direction as an axe is ( not having as big of a surface area in contact with the wood helps with splitting efficiency )

 

[mcswood]

To compare the ability to chop between an axe / hatchet and a knife they should
be of equal weight.
A 2 or 3 pound knife such as a heavy kukri or bolo with a razor sharp 1/4" thick blade will
out chop most if not all axes. The draw back is that it has a much larger edge to
care for and it won't hold a candle to any axe / hatchet for splitting wood.
That being said;
If processing wood either for burning or building is on the menu I would go with
a good folding saw, a medium sized axe, and make a wooden wedge to aid in splitting.
A knife of some sort should always go along but when used for other than simple cutting
the chance of injury is high to say the least.