I'm the most inept sharpener. Can you help me choose the right (ideally fool-proof) sharpening system, and debug my (mis?)understanding of the how-to?

[Edgetera Edgetera]

Hi experts!

I love knives and I love them sharp, so far so good.
The problem is, I don't seem to be able to get a consistent edge, if any at all.

Years ago I was getting acceptable results with the Spyderco Tri-Angle Sharpmaker (no hair-popping but some degree of paper-cutting).
I sold it when I had a backpacker phase and only carried a Leatherman Surge and an Opinel.
Back then I tried the Lansky Blademedic, and a hand-held two-sided diamond thing.
It was always the same story: I would get a somehow acceptable edge on the coarser grit, but at the finer grit I would make it dull again.

I then bought something similar to the Work Sharp Guided Field Sharpener, but smaller, with an handle, and no guides.
I tried holding the sharpener in one hand (in the air or against a stable surface) and moving the blade on it at the angle of the original edge like you see people using the Guided Field Sharpener.
I also tried holding the blade and moving the sharpener.
Nope. Very inconsistent results, with same fuck-up at the end.
And the curved tip, no chance...

I have read posts in this and other forums, and watched some videos...
The method I use is pretty much the one (or my maybe erroneous/incomplete understanding of the one) explained by @Magnaminous: get the burr on one side, get it on the other side, slowly reducing the strokes-per-side to 1 until there is no burr anymore, and repeating it with the finer grits.

So WHY don't I get a fu%§*#g edge!?
Is it a matter or practice or no amount of practice could get you a good edge with such tools?
When you read the method I use, and the fact that I tend to fuck-up at the polishing phase, do you get a "I know what you're doing wrong!"? If you do, please tell!

Anyway. Now I am living in a place and getting stuff again.
I have two sets of "Nakiri + Santoku" (a better one and a cheaper one).
A couple of Vietnamese kitchen knives made of cheap instant-rust steel (aka "cut onions and they'll taste like iron").
Still have the Surge and the Opinel.
Got a Kershaw 8720 and a SOG Powerpint.
And I want them all sharp!

I bought a water benchstone set, cheap and just two grits, with a plastic guide where I'm supposed to stick the neck of the blade and slide all together to supposedly get a constantly stable angle, but once I got it and I tried to figure out how to use it I realized that I've no idea how to keep the same angle when moving to the curved part of the blade, and that the real angle very greatly depends on the height of the blade, hence this kind of guide is as useful as a cocktail straw in a desert. Or I am completely failing to see how I am supposed to use it.
Hence I never used the set.
If I find something like the SHARPAL 196N but which is meant to slide with the knife so that the knife has a reasonable stable angle, I would at least give the stone a try.
Are you aware of such a guide? Or what material would you use (not to clog or ruin the stone) if you had to make one?

Anyway tbh atm I was feeling more optimist about the Work Sharp Precision Adjust (plus a digital inclinometer to fine adjust the angle depending on the dimension of the blade).
I can get a new one for just 65 Euro.
The problem are the small knives. Maybe the 8720 will be ok, but Opinel, Surge, and the even smaller Powerpint? How much of the clamp do I have to grind down to be able to sharpen those at 20%?

For this reason I was considering an "edge pro apex", but even the basic one costs 220 Euro. It kind of hurts having to pay that much more only because of a couple of small moltitool blades which I use once in a while.
And yet, even once in a while they MUST be sharp and I'd like to do it myself.
So I'd stretch my budget if there is no cheaper alternative and no way to mod the Precision Adjust.
Anybody knows of either?
I personally was thinking about using a very strong magnet under the clamp of the Precision Adjust and place the small blade ON the clamp instead of IN the clamp. Does it sound like it would work?

In the while, as I am hopelessly hopeful, I bought an Outdoor Edge Edge-X Pro because it still seems like the best small&light choice for on-the-road, and it seems like a better Blademedic (and they confirmed an angle of 22,5 which sounds good to me). Still didn't open it. So, if you know of a better alternative, please share.


Ok, to sum it up, can you help me choose the right sharpener and can you recommend some good videos about sharpening, besides what posted on Magnaminous' sticky post?

Thanks a lot!

 

[old4570]

Simplest ?

Yeah , ........ There are some basics to follow , and if you do so ...... you can't help but make a knife sharp !
Basic 1 = Marker Pen , color the edge / bevel - All of it ( just the bevel ) .. This will show you where you are removing material ( Right place or wrong place )
Basic 2 = Sharpen one side till you push material to the other side - This is called a burr .. It means you have sharpened to the apex !
Basic 3 = DO the same thing to the other side of the blade - Sharpen till you push material to the other side - or create a burr ..
Basic 4 = You have sharpened your blade and no matter which side you sharpen you are pushing the burr one way or the other ! ( Yay = Success )
Basic 5 = This is where you want to be to :
A) Bling the blade or make it a mirror finish ( 5000 or 10000 grit )
C) Make a working edge to your desired grit level
D) Do something trick like dual grit
E) Remove the burr

This is the basics of knife sharpening no matter the method employed :
Just remember , that sharpie or marker pen is your friend & will show you ( teach you ) what you are doing right or wrong !
Embrace the things you do right & eliminate the things you do wrong !
And yes , small knives are a PITA to sharpen .
Video's = U tube ... ( So one recommends U tube ) https://www.youtube.com/@OUTDOORS55 > I found OD55 to be sensible & factual and he apparently also makes knives . One day when I have enough scratch I might buy one of his bushcrafty creations !

 

[Old Biker]

I like the guided systems with a table, instead the of ones with clamps. I believe they work better on very small blades, and very large blades. Edge pro makes a small blade adapter for their apex system. They also have some good videos on their website on how to use their machines.

I use the Hapstone V8 machine. I can remove the side table extensions and have a small blade table.

Hapstones are modular, so you can put a table head, (V8, M3) or a clamp head (R2) on the same base.

O.B.

 

[Another Shepherd]

I use the Hapstone V8 machine. I can remove the side table extensions and have a small blade table.

Yes, the Hapstone V8 is a good choice for small (or large) blades.

My wife has a traditional knife with three blades that she wanted me to sharpen. The largest of the blades is 2.5 inches long and just over a quarter of an inch wide. The very narrow width prevents use of a clamp.

I tried the Work Sharp Professional Precision Adjust, which comes with both a magnetic table and a clamp, but the magnets are not strong enough to hold such a small blade steady.

The Hapstone V8 has stronger magnets and worked better, although I still had to hold the knife firmly against the table with one hand. I did get the largest blade satisfactorily sharp.

But the knife has two smaller blades just over 1.5 inches long. The Hapstone could not hold these smaller blades firmly.

I ended up using a Work Sharp Ken Onion, which is a mini belt grinder, for the smaller blades. Bear in mind that the Ken Onion gives you a convex bevel, which some people like and some people don't. But it will sharpen almost anything, especially if you get the blade grinding attachment with wider belts. And it is good for deburring. I use it not only for extremely small knives but also kitchen knives and machetes.

 

[Ourorboros]

The good news is that nakiri are just about the easiest blades to learn how to sharpen - good clearance and a straight edge. Large enough so the angles are obvious.

 

[Edgetera Edgetera]

I like the guided systems with a table, instead the of ones with clamps. I believe they work better on very small blades, and very large blades. Edge pro makes a small blade adapter for their apex system. They also have some good videos on their website on how to use their machines.

I use the Hapstone V8 machine. I can remove the side table extensions and have a small blade table.

Could you compare (at least in theory if you did not use them both) the Hapstone and the Edge Pro Apex?

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

The problem most folks have when learning to sharpen is in the assessment phase, because if you don't know how to read the knife you don't have a way to tell if you're doing things well or poorly. Another common problem is having edges that are QUITE far-gone and using too-fine of stones to attempt the refurbishment. But at the end of the day, sharpening simply comes down to holding a blade at an angle to an abrasive surface and rubbing it until it'll cut things.

To assist in visualization, imagine a dull edge as being like a triangle with the top cut off. In sharpening you're removing material from both sides until they meet at a point again.

•If you look at your blade edge-up under a bright light, any spots you can see reflecting light are dull. A sharp edge will look like it vanishes into nothing. Make a note of any zones where light is reflecting and focus especially on them.

•There are simple ways of approximating particular angles freehand, but I usually keep things ultra-simple for folks starting out and tell them to simply imagine they're trying to take thin slices off the stone. Most of the time that's going to inherently get you a functional angle. But for hard numbers, an edge of ~15° per side will cut well enough on the majority of edged tools, being neither so thick as to make cutting difficult, nor so thin as to be over-prone to damage in even fairly rough use.

•Use a sufficiently coarse stone for shaping the bevel. Most people make the mistake of jumping for the finest stones they can get, forgetting that you have to bevel the blade before honing it with fine stones. The coarse stone(s) help you shape the geometry right, and the fine stones are just for polishing and refining that geometry. Otherwise you can end up polishing the bevels for hours and still not have a sharp edge because the material removal rate is so slow.

•Once all reflective spots have been removed from the edge, now you mostly have to worry about any burr on the blade. The easy way to test for this is to rest the blade on the back of your thumbnail under its own weight and waggle it side to side. If it sticks in both directions, it's sharp. If it slides in both directions it's dull. If it slides one way but sticks in the other, that side has a burr hooked over on it that needs a few extra light strokes on that face to remove. Test along the blade until if feels like it's sticking well along the full length, especially in areas that were previously reflective.

Most other aspects of sharpening do nothing more than confuse matters at this stage of learning.

 

[Old Biker]

Could you compare (at least in theory if you did not use them both) the Hapstone and the Edge Pro Apex?

I own a Hapstone M2, and the Hapstone modular platform with the M3, V8, scissor, chisel, and R2 modules. I don't own an edge pro Apex. I used to own a chines copy, that was very similar, but not exactly identical. Based on that and what I can see from pictures, this is what I think I know.

First off they both use the same stones. Any edge pro form factor stone will fit either machine, and there are hundreds of options available. Both support the blade on an angled table. With an adjustable blade stop. The blade stop is adjusted to hold the cutting edge of the blade, just forward of the front edge of the table. The knife is held in position with on hand, while the other hand is used to run the sharpening guide. When you switch sides of the blade, the handle of the knife changes side. So you switch which hand is doing which job. When your off hand needs to run the sharpening guide, just use a slow deliberate motion, until that hand learns the motion.

Hapstone is made of metal. Edge pro apex is mostly plastic. The Apex folds up and is more portable. The Apex uses suction cup to hold it to the work table. Because of it the weight of it's metal construction Hapstone doesn't need suction cups to hold it steady.

Edge pro's stock blade stop is one piece. Since a knifes edge and it's spine are rarely parallel, this often leave the blade with only one point of support. There is and accessory slide guide, that has an adjustable center section. this allows the center to be adjusted forward of, or back of the outside points. This allows to points of contact. Making it easier to hold the knife in position. Hapstone comes stock with an adjustable knife stop, similar to, but not as nice as Edge Pro's slide guide. The center section of Hapstone's stop only adjusts forward of it's outside points. On a few knives that is a problem. A little grinding on the back end of the center section can fix that.

Hapstone comes with magnets built into the table. Edge Pro does not, but a retractable magnet accessory is available.

Edge Pro sells a small knife attachment. It is basically a narrower table that fits on top of the main table, with a matching smaller blade stop. Hapstone doesn't offer a small blade attachment. But if you remove the side wings on the V8 table, you end up with a very nice small blade table. The problem is the rounded end, of the center section, of Hapstone's blade stop, doesn't work very well alone. The simple solution would be just turn it around and use it's square end. But the center slot doesn't extend far enough to allow this. So one must extend this slot or build their own blade stop.

A few pictures.
First is my Hapstone V8 with side table wings attached, and spread slightly to make them more viable. Also notice the stock blade stop with orange rounded end center section. Second is my homemade small blade stop. Third is my V8 with side table wings removed and small blade stop installed.

O.B.

 

[sodak]

The problem most folks have when learning to sharpen is in the assessment phase, [...]

This, a thousand times over. When you don't have a mentor, you don't know what to look for and how to get to the finish line.

I got an Edgepro Apex 20 years ago, and it taught me what I was missing. Following the instructions, the very first knife I sharpened came out splitting atoms. Once I had sharpened several knives, I finally knew what real sharpness was, and what steps were necessary to get there. I might still pull it out once in a while, but now, I can get great sharpness freehand. Not quite as good as the Edgepro, but plenty good enough for my needs.

 

[Another Shepherd]

I do not have an Edge Pro. Evidently, from the comments here and elsewhere, the Edge Pro Apex comes with exceptionally good instructions. That's important.

But looking at the materials and construction, the Edge Pro Apex seems overpriced at $285 (Edge Pro Apex 4 at Amazon with water stones). You can get a Work Sharp Professional Precision Adjust for $250 with diamond plates (no water required) and both a magnetic table and a clamp and with much sturdier construction.

The Hapstone V8 costs more, but it will handle long knives as well as short knives, and it has good magnets. The quality of the construction is way beyond the Edge Proc Apex. The Hapstone is big and requires a lot of table/desk/bench/whatever space, and it is not conveniently portable.

 

[TheOne45]

What about Hapstone RS for $200?
Looks better to me then those 'half plastic professional' sharpeners.

 

[TheOne45]

Edgetera,
Now I see you wrote prices in euros in your first post.
Are you from Europe? If so you are not obligated to 'only buy US made products'.
Check Aliexpress. You will find some good guided sharpeners there for good price.

 

[Grasshopperglock]

There's a lot going on in this thread.


I've free hand sharpened most my life. Being amazed as a child watching Dad run his tiny traditional across a stone. I personally never got the edge I wanted from freehand. I have crazy respect for those that can. I've had a couple guided systems in life. Ending on the TSProf.

A guided system is way more complex and you can ruin a knife something easy. If you think you're going to pull a machine out the box, rub some stones on the blade to the ultimate. It's just not that easy. Instructions in the box or not.

Every system you listed will work. It's you and your skills holding you back. You want the system to do it for you. Not You for the system.


My best advice is to practice with what you got. If you can lay an edge with a Lansky. Then and only then, upgrade. Learn the feel of making a good edge. Learn how magnets collect metal.dust. That water on stones verses dry isn't about lube. It's dust control. Learn the little things like the direction to flip the knife to keep the dust or Slurry out the pivot. How to not roll the apex. How to touch the heel correctly.

Buy a bunch of the cheapest, most garbage knives you can get your hands on. Practice. Again, the sharpener isn't going to do it for you. You have to learn to lay an edge with what you have. Baby steps.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

That water on stones verses dry isn't about lube. It's dust control.

Respectfully, while the dust control factor is nice, it IS about lubrication and preventing clogging. Lubricated stones will cut better, all else equal, because their abrasive grains lose the edges from friction slower. This is why hard-bond vitrified stones are oil stones--their reluctance to shed grit means they need the more powerful lubricating ability of oil instead of water to prevent the stone glazing from the surface grains dulling down but not releasing.

 

[Drop bear]

A pull through and a steel.

 

[SwissHeritageCo]

For some reason I have always found it easier to sharpen with the stone in my hand. Because of this I use pocket stones or smaller stones in general, stones that I can pinch between my thumb and middle finger.

This method allows a closer look and gives more feedback. Luckily, I put a convex on my edges by using a loose wrist rocking motion when I fling the blade back and forth. Once you get the hang of it you can do it really fast by sharpening a single section at a time.

 

[Guy McVer]

Buy a bunch of the cheapest, most garbage knives you can get your hands on. Practice.

Yup yup yup. Soft, cheap steel. Great for learning.

You know what's really easy to sharpen? A Swiss army knife. You know what's super cheap and easy to get? Used Swiss army knives. You can buy them in box loads and have them shipped to your home. When you get bored of using them for sharpening practice, then you can start taking them apart and building custom Swiss army knives out of them.

 

[Another Shepherd]

For some reason I have always found it easier to sharpen with the stone in my hand. Because of this I use pocket stones or smaller stones in general, stones that I can pinch between my thumb and middle finger.
This method allows a closer look and gives more feedback.

That's how I always sharpened machetes before I got a Work Sharp Ken Onion. With a large blade, you can see whether you have the angle right. I had been doing that for years before I ever saw anyone using bench stones.

 

[Another Shepherd]

Yup yup yup. Soft, cheap steel. Great for learning.

You know what's really easy to sharpen? A Swiss army knife. You know what's super cheap and easy to get? Used Swiss army knives. .

Some cheap blades can be almost impossible to sharpen. A used SAK is a good idea, and you won't have to go to extra effort to dull it.

 

[Guy McVer]

Some cheap blades can be almost impossible to sharpen.

Yeah, like some of the cheap Chinese made stuff with bad heat treats. It's good to experience what that can be like, but probably not while you're trying to learn and understand the basics.