IMHO on chisel grind.

[nozh2002]

I am talking about single side grind used on some Japanese knives like Yanagiba on supersharp side or Nata on the chopping side.

On my humble opinion it is done only for "easy to sharpen" reason. It does not require special skills to put blade flat on the stone and just move it - no need to keep required angle. This way anybody can maintain very small angle for Yanagiba. And I guess it is really hard almost impossible to maintain this angle otherwise, because blade will be too close to stone surface. Sharpening Yanagiba require several waterstones and this knife widely used in kitchen over Japan I guess, so problem of maintaining exteremely sharp edge for slicing fresh Salmon (or other fish) by unexperienced owners id important, otherwise no reason to have such a sliced if it is dull.

So this problem japenese knifmekers resolve by making this knives single side grinded ans it is not only single side grinded but flat side is not really flat but bended a bit inside so if you put it on stone edge and back of the blade will touch it, not entier blade surface. I think this part was lost by manufacturers here and nobody making chisel grind bended inside, but instead flat as it comes from metallurgical plant (twice less work to do isn't it?) but instead focus attention on things like strength and tacticality which is IMHO not what japanese single side grind is about.

So Japanese IMHO use this technic for knives for which easy to sharpen is critical. However for hunters they or tantoes (real japanese) - 'tactical" they use convex grind which more appropriate for this applications.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[HoB]

Well according to some sources the chisle grind on kitchen knives has different reasons. On is, that you place the cut more precisely, since you can see the edge from the top. Another reason is that the chisle grind is opening the cut for very thin slices of malleable material (fish, meat etc.). Both requires, that the chisel grind is applied on the outside of the knife (right for right handed people, left for left handled people). The hollow grind on the inside (it is not really bend ) reduces binding in things like meat (which can be pretty pronounced on such a large surface) and to allow to draw off the burr more easily after honing the chisel side. It requires getting used to in the kitchen for sure. In particular on large objects you have to counter steer heavily against the knife pulling to the inside, but personally, overall I am a big fan of the traditional japanese chisel grind in the kitchen.

On modern tantos, I agree with you. It seems simply a gimmick, especially since many knifes have the grind on the wrong side or don't offer "handed" versions.

 

[nozh2002]

Well according to some sources the chisle grind on kitchen knives has different reasons. On is, that you place the cut more precisely, since you can see the edge from the top.

Can you please, explain bit more - I do not understand this. Am I correct that it is about seeng edge line when blade is vertical and you are watching from top? It may make sence for edge with big angle, but more like for duba or nata. And more for carpenters then for chief I guess - Yanagiba has exteremely small angle and it is hard not to see edge line.

Another reason is that the chisle grind is opening the cut for very thin slices of malleable material (fish, meat etc.). Both requires, that the chisel grind is applied on the outside of the knife (right for right handed people, left for left handled people). The hollow grind on the inside (it is not really bend ) reduces binding in things like meat (which can be pretty pronounced on such a large surface)...

I heart this too, but fish and beef are very soft and do not really has flat surface, plus this bend (in geometrical terms, it is grind actually) not too dep and may not be seen until you sharpen it (as happen in my case). So I found that this does not work for fresh salmon - I am big fan of salmon sushimi.

... and to allow to draw off the burr more easily after honing the chisel side.

But it supposed to be sharpened only on one side - flat?

It requires getting used to in the kitchen for sure. In particular on large objects you have to counter steer heavily against the knife pulling to the inside, but personally, overall I am a big fan of the traditional japanese chisel grind in the kitchen.

On modern tantos, I agree with you. It seems simply a gimmick, especially since many knifes have the grind on the wrong side or don't offer "handed" versions.

Japanese have this kind of grind as well as I know on kitchen knives, plus curpenters knife or shoemakers knives. And I coming to conclusion that it is exactely because of what you pointed out - edge visibility. Good example - Nata knife - working horse for Japanese outdoorsmen:

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[Whoever Wherever]

I'm here for the beeating a dead horse party. We just finished another chisel grind thread lol. Let it die.
Modern chisel is a flat grind on one side with a zero edge, its for cooking. Heres why.
1 It allows you to see the edge of the knife
when combinded with
2 allows you to use the flat section of teh blade right against the finger tips of your off hand (hence the grind on the right for righties)
allows for incredibley thin slicing
and
3 shaves food off away from the finger tips
On tactical knives the modern chisel grind is a joke IMO. I can see how it owuld benefit other craftsmen with specific jobs to do with a knife.

 

[nozh2002]

I'm here for the beeating a dead horse party. We just finished another chisel grind thread lol. Let it die.

You are wellcome, but I found HoB replay very usefull and it is not about beating but understandin more.

Thanks, Vassili.

 

[HoB]

It seems that BigJim is actually agreeing and I would assume that his "we" referres to a foody forum?

Yes, you can sight down the inside of the blade and know exactly where the edge is. The hollow grind on the inside is actually resonably noticable on the knifes I have. Especially if you cut with them through something thick. And you don't really need much of a curvature. And yes the opening of the cut works only on soft materials, so they are found most commonly on knifes for meat, fish and delicate vegetables. The thick Deba knife is actually also a fish knife but for much rougher work than the Yanagiba including working with and against fish bone.

When sharpening you are supposed to sharpen flat on the bevel (well actually the bevel is often a bit convex) and on the other side you draw off the burr that you raise by sharpening on the bevel side with a few strokes flat to the stone. But since the blade is actually not flat but slightly hollow or curved as you say, you present a slightly higher angle against the edge.

 

[Whoever Wherever]

Yes I am agreeing that in the proper place chisel grinds rule. But we have been over every item on this thread before, as in the readers and posters of blade forum. If you search for chisel grind discusions you will find every single thing about chisel grinds from how to sharpen them to what they are/aernt good for. I just dont know why we are going over it again. If you are having trouble finding threads on how to sharpen chisel try the tool shed, most sharpening discussion happens there.

 

[HoB]

Wow, BigJim, already jaded after 4 months? Better get used to seeing a few topics more than once . Just do a search for "Spyderco vs. Benchmade" . Or even better, just search for "S30V".

 

[nozh2002]

Wow, BigJim, already jaded after 4 months? Better get used to seeing a few topics more than once . Just do a search for "Spyderco vs. Benchmade" . Or even better, just search for "S30V".

Or "Ketshaw ZT question"

Thanks, Vassili.