IMPORTANT Information on 123A's for Surefires!!!

Bucky

Bucky

Joined
Jun 10, 2000
Messages
511
The moderator of the Surefire Forum, which is now back and running, is quoted as saying this on 5-21-99, "In looking at the recent research done by our engineers, the best battery to go with is the DL123A (Durecell). The rest of the batteries on the market do not support or give you the light out put that the flashlight is rated at. For example, the 6P, using DL123A puts of 65 lumens. Using the Panasonic equivilant you will only get about 45 lumens."

That is even his spelling error of Duracell. Anyway, in my un-scientific tests with my M2 of 2 Sanyo's vs. the 2 Duracell Ultras that came with the M2, it seems to me to be a wash as far as initial brightness (I did not test them for runtime, I trust Brock's tests are fairly representative). Both sets were brand new when I tested them and I would think that Sanyo and Panasonic batteries would be of approximately equal quality as far as power and run time.

My Question to Brock, Tim, Size15s, stjames, CD Fleischer and the rest of you: Is this just BS propaganda by Surefire who probably has a Duracell contract, or may this be true?

I know that Duracell, and especially Ultras, last longer than Sanyo 123A's (re: Brock's tests http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum57/HTML/000088.html), but do they give the same initial brightness as lesser brands like Sanyo and Panasonic, or is Surefire full of it?

Any responses would be appreciated by anyone.

Hopefully, we can talk this out and help everyone buy the best battery for their money.

Bucky

[This message has been edited by Bucky (edited 08-26-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Bucky (edited 08-26-2000).]
 
I've only used Duracell DL123As myself and haven't done my own testing. However, I'm inclined to believe SureFire's reported test results. Not all batteries are necessarily made of the same quality materials, and there could indeed be superiority exhibited by one brand over another. I'd be hard pressed to believe that SureFire is recommending Duracell solely because of a contract. Just IMHO.

I also believe Brock's runtime tests are pretty accurate. In his tests, the Duracell Ultra's ran for 27 min and the Sanyo's ran for 23 min. In new batteries, there is an initial period where power output is very high. After that initial stage, the power output is considerably less. I would suspect that the Ultra's provide more total minutes of the initial high output stage than the lower output second stage. Brock, have you gathered any information about this in your tests?

I also read an interesting thing in the SureFire forums: http://www.surefire.com/ubb/Forum9/HTML/000015.html

The moderator stated on 10/21/1999 that they found no differences between the Ultras and the regulars. On the other hand, SureFire seems to have switched to packing Ultras with their lights. My M6 came with regulars, but my 6P came with Ultras. I suspect the 6P was more recently packaged.

Also, I bought a couple of the SureFire 12B Hurricane lights from BrightGuy recently. They come with the Ultras and store neatly in the plastic cases. Pretty cool. The lamp is incandescent, not LED, though.

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[This message has been edited by Skyline (edited 08-27-2000).]
 
When I did my burn test I should have looked at the actual wattage each kind of battery supplied initially. I will see if I can get some more and test again and meter the output of the batteries at the same time. I don't remember their being a difference initially between the batteries, but there could be. I think the Duracell's seemed to hold their brightness longer then the Sanyo's. I have also heard that a rumor that there are only 3 companies that actually make 123A's, I am guessing it was Sanyo, Duracell, and ??? I will post some power ratings as soon as I get some new batteries.

Brock
 
Since the Sanyos are so close and available for about $1.50 each, I think they're a much better buy. I can't tell the difference in initial brightness.
 
Originally posted by craigz:
Since the Sanyos are so close and available for about $1.50 each, I think they're a much better buy. I can't tell the difference in initial brightness.
Click to expand...

Seeing a difference is probably difficult. A light meter might be needed. Can you tell a difference in how long the initial brightness lasts?

The qualities to consider include:
- initial brightness
- duration of the initial bright stage
- overall battery life
- tolerance before thermal shutdown

The 12PM/ZM lights are subject to thermal shutdown with the 500 lumen lamp after approximately 3 minutes continuous use. I wonder how long before thermal shutdown with the Duracell's vs. Sanyo's?

SureFire states the M6 does not suffer from thermal shutdown with the 500 lumen bulb and Duracell's. I wonder if the same is true using Sanyo's?

So many questions.
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SureFire has already done all of these tests, but I guess the point is independent verification.
wink.gif

 
My 2p's worth - hey, go with the Duracell - I know they are not cheap - seven/eight pounds in the uk - but that's what does the job.

Incidentally, the cheapest way I found of sourcing them in the UK? Getting them sent by post from Germany (www.tool-shop.com)

Crazy UK prices.:-(

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I did some figuring on prices to run these lights per minute, here is what I found.

"The Duracell Ultras ran for 27 min ($16.99 local store). The regular Duracell's ran for 25 min ($5.83 Botach). The Sanyo's ran for 23 min ($3.80 electronet). So the Duracell is a better battery. Using the prices above I calculated the price in cents to run the light for a minute, Ultra is 63 cents, regular Duracell 23 cents and 16 cents for the Sanyo."

When I ran those tests none of the batteries went in to thermal shutdown, but I was in a cold garage with one end of the light open. I would bet they would in the 12PM, they seem to get a lot hotter in there. Also does anyone know if the 12pack from Botach is now ultras? That would definetly change the numbers here.

Brock
 
Hey Brock, the 12B I got was Duracell Ultra and the light was not an LED... Dang, now I will have to try and find a way to convert it...
 
I've just got back from Italy, and saw SureFire flashlights on BB guns (!) These were machineguns with laser sights and telescopic sights - the whole works on a BB gun - strange.

They tried to sell me a 12ZM for £250. As If! They didn't sell the batteries though. I got some Energizer "Photo" EL123AP ([pale gold with red tops] made in Japan) for £3.50 each which is fantastic.

I did runtime tests with Duracell, Energizer and Sanyo a while back, and found the cheaper model lacked the inital brightness and died more quickly. I was thinking that it was just hype until the SureFire guys told me that the Duracells have a better thermal shutdown.

They also said that if my 12PM is always shutting down, than I'm using it for the wrong jobs. You don't need 500+ Lumens to read a newspaper after all!

most serious flashlight manufacturers have a deal to supply batteries - usually Duracell or Energizer (Coca Cola or Pepsi - Mucky D's or Burger King - etc) SureFire would pick the best in my opinion.

Alastair

 
In another artice i did about lithium powered lights, I had some 123 specs. After doing more research, I've found that only two compaies actually make 123-size cells: Sanyo of Japan, and Duracell. If it isn't a Duracell cell, it's made by Sanyo.

Surefire recommends Duracells because the internal thermal shutdown mechanism is a bit more forgiving then in the Sanyo cells. I've used both, and can't tell a difference in brightness, etc.

--dan

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Co-Moderator of the General Flashlight, Lantern, & Headlamp Discussion Board at www.candlepowerforums.com
 
Well I checked Ultra's, Regular and the Sanyo's. The Sanyo ran 1.09 amps, the Ultra were 1.13 and regular Duracell ran 1.12 amps. I used a Fluke 87 and used the averaging feature for a 5 minute run. If they are all supplying the nearly same wattage (within 5%) you would be hard pressed to see a difference in intensity from the lamp. I bet even using 2 or 3 year old batteries would be more noticeable differnce.

I still prefer and recommend Duracell, but the Sanyo's are so much cheaper. I agree with Surefire that Duracell is a better battery, I guess we each just have to decide if it is worth it.

Brock
 
I have no trouble believing that a very few companies make 123s. But I would be very suprised if only Sanyo and Duracell make them. Most suprising would be that Energizers would then have to be made by one of those two companies. If I remember correctly Botach used to claim that the Sanyo batteries were actually made in the same plant as the Duracells. I can see maybe only Energizer and Duracell making the 123s, with Duracell making Sanyos as Botach claimed and maybe Energizer making Panasonics
(only a guess).

I respect the opinion/information that dano has provided in this and in all posts, and I am impressed with and happy to see the new www.candlepowerforums.com up and running.

I guess it just seems hard to believe that either Sanyo or Duracell make the 123s for Energizer

Once again no disrespect meant, I would be interested to know more about this if you have any further information.

Bucky

 
Just an FYI, the Energizer 123's are made by Sanyo. Look at the back of an Energizer 123 package, and in the corner is a tiny "Made in Japan." Compare the construction of a Duracell and Sanyo-based cell, and they are made slightly differently.

 
Just as Kellogs don't make cereal for anyone else - not even for themselves (I've heard in England atleast), I wouldn't be shocked to find out that Energizers are made by someone else.

I can not tell the difference in normal use between Energizers and normal Duracells. The price is pretty much the same anyway.
 
Hi
Where is this "surefire forum" that you speak of?. I have looked but can't seem to find it. Any help? Thanks Al
 
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