Improv Scenario

S

SM24

Joined
Mar 13, 2002
Messages
89
Ok, here it is:

You are a bill collector/legal papers server (you have a legitimate reason to be on their property/knock on their door). You go to a house collect your stuff/serve legal papers to a woman who lives there. The front door is up two flights of five stairs each, divided by a 5'x 5' landing (to be more clear, you go up five stairs, then the 5x5 landing, then five more stairs, then the front door).
You knock on the door and a large frowning man answers. Mustering up a big smile, you ask for "Tammy". He asks who you are, and you tell the truth, you are _____ from _____ to get _____ from her (still smiling big). He takes half a step toward you when you notice he's holding a baseball bat in his right hand (it was concealed just inside the doorway before) and begins to bring it into a two handed grip......
Now what?:eek: (You are carrying whatever tools you normally carry)

This nearly happened to me the other day whilst collecting delinquent video rentals (all except the dangerous baseball bat part!;) This is a little embellished:D )
 
Run and call the cops.


P.S., I know nothing about collectors/servers, so I'm not sure what your resposibilities are. but if running is an option, GO FOR IT!
 
I second run and call the cops. You don't have any loved ones around who you have to protect and all your valued property is far away. He just wants you to get off his porch.

If I'm going into a strange house to do something which would possibly make the residents angry I'd try to park facing the street with my doors unlocked. If you have keyless entry you could leave it running in park and be gone as soon as you an get 51% of your body inside the car.

If that's not an option try screaming or pretending to call for backup. Not terribly macho, but at this point you're still standing there grinning and he's got a bat.

If you want to be tactical about it I suppose you could try to threaten him with whatever knife or gun you have on you, but I don't believe you can kill him just for holding a bat; he probably has to try to hit you first. Either way it would be a very ugly situation.
 
I think that it is a grey area in terms of being justified in using lethal force. You must be in a reasonable fear for your life. If someone is coming at you with a bat (a deadly weapon) you might be. Now if you give him two center mass and one between the eyes I bet a jury is not going to like that. Most juries will not be too sympathetic to collections agents in the first place. I agree with running. This guy did not go looking for trouble, it found him. He just wants it gone, most probably. To him you are the BG. When the BG runs the defender does not usually chase. If this happened and you still need to collect I believe you are justified in calling the police and asking for an escort. So my first choice is run. If you still must collect try to get back up in the form of uniformed police.
 
If you move back wit a bat in play, unless you are able to vacate (we are in a stairway right? Inside or outside? Anthing to trip on moving backwards in a hurry or are you going to tumble backwards down the stairs?) NOW and way the hell out of range and be able to keep moving to safety, moving back will give him the room to brain you with his Louisville Slugger.

If it is coming up, close the distance, trap the arms in and down or out of the way or whatever, smack (bash hard and repeatedly if necessary) elbow into face or collarbone and then face, knee to testicles or peronial nerve (outside of thigh), clear him backwards THEN move out while dialing 911 knowing that there may be more bad people who want to kill you for doing your job. Trapping him in the doorway limits his movement and prevents more cavalry from coming outside briefly. Do not follow him inside for any reason. LEAVE. Do not remove any weapon type thing from your pockets if you can avoid it as it escalates the situation to a potential home invasion scenario when the fuzz arrives.

Not ideal by any means, but a club requires room for the overhead and you moving gives the room necessary. If you fall backwards down the stairs, think of the lovely posible outcomes. Reaching for a weapon will require time you ought to be using to move in and prevent the cretin from killing you with his bat. A tac folder will not stop the big swing from coming down. It may maim or kill him after you avoid the swing (if you avoid it) and if not you have given him more chances to brain you with his bat.

If you are going to do such work, maybe you shold invest in small tape recorder to keep running in your pocket should this scenario occur. If you have trouble, when the police get there greet them and hand them your recorder and tape to go along with your statement. if you feel you need a lawyer, maybe the tape should go to your lawyer instead. Ask an attorney about this if you can.
 
Bats are also effective jabbing weapons. You cannot assume this fella is too stupid to think fast enough to use it as such.

One thing to add is that it would be great to have OC in your hand in your pocket before you even knock on the door. You can use that stuff if you even think something bad might be going down. As soon as you see that bat that is reason enough to pepper the brainer. I still think it is best to run. By rushing him you are responsible for escalating the situation. He never said he was going to attack you and having a bat in one's hand does not qualify as assault. One thing to think about before you knock on the door as well is to knock then take a couple steps back. This gives you more room to watch the situation and a slightly larger amount of reaction time.
 
...many good points here.
As I said, this scenario was totally embellished, because the real one was much less interesting, and would've been a lame discussion.
The stairs are outside, and backing down them seems like a dodgy option to me. To the left, however, is a nice green lawn, which would provide a clear and unobstructed avenue of retreat (safer than backing down the stairs, but still on the property).
Yes I do have my hand in my pocket gripping the OC spray. The other hand is showing a business card (the best form of credentials I can show them). I do also make standard practice of knocking on the door, then backing down the stairs several steps. And, as always, smile, smile, smile, and be nice, nice, nice.
For me, I do this to collect long overdue merchandise for a video rental store. I wanted to make the scenario a little more generalized, though (I bet no one else on the forum does exactly that! Maybe serving legal papers though.) Legal papers might present their own challenge, in that you may need to be close enough when they open the door to thrust the papers into their hands (no experience with this myself, anyone else?)
The actual "incident" was as follows: the setting was the same as described in the original thread, except kids answered the door. I (very politely) asked for the videos, they didn't have them, left them with a business card and message for mom and a big big smile. Went back to my car, started it up, then the described man came outside. He had no visible weapon, but shouted "What do you want?" not in a nice tone of voice, and began to walk toward me. I put the car in drive, foot on brake, ready to go, rolled down the window (still needed to communticate with him). Big smile, waved, said hello. Ready to move head out of the way of any incoming hands and hit the gas. Explained who I was (again, very politely), and he began to relax. However, I definitely got the feeling that, had I been the least bit argumentative or confrontational, even verbally, he was ready to throw down. Drove away, all is well.
Lesson of the day: preemptive verbal de-escalation through being Nice, Nice, Nice is good. And have other backup responses (verbal and non-verbal) ready to go.
Told you the real story wasn't too interesting. But maybe that's the success of it. If it were more interesting to tell, then something (tactically) probably went very wrong.
 
Exactly, your story would make for a boring movie but very satisfying real life (for all parties involved.). I agree going down the stairs backwards is probable not a good idea. However, if it were and enclosed area I would take my chances peppering the BG and turning and dashing down 5 stairs than hanging out in a small area with a lovely person weilding a bat. Wonder what Greg has to say about this situation
 
As pointed out a civilian doing any kind of service or collection is in a difficult spot right off the bat (pardon the pun).

A constructive way of handling services / collections of any sort might be as follows:

1. Confirm what you are after has not been already returned or sent. All too often this isn't done and when you show up on someone's porch asking for what they've already taken care it causes at a minimum some bad feelings and embarassment all the way around.

2. Whenever possible call the person and at a minimum leave a positive message. Identify yourself, the business you're calling for, the reason for your call, and then ask if there's any legitimate justification for the item not being returned as of yet? This is very professional, can be said in a cheerful tone or manner, and allows the person to offer whatever reason they wish...or to tell you they've already returned or sent the item. Write down their response to your question, and note the date, time, and number you called. Get a name, as well. If they still have the item and there's no legitmate reason why it hasn't been returned, offer you'd be more than happy to save them time and a trip by coming by and picking it up from them. However, you need to do this soon. Offer a time and date, and confirm this with them. Again, you're giving them something (their time and energy) and they're saving face. You're now not the BG, but the Good Guy who's just doing his job and asking if he can be of service to them.

3. Finish by offering that it's important for them to get the item back in the store, or wherever, as there are penalties and you're seeking to help them avoid these. If they ask what penalities, offer only that they can range from additional fees, to a permanent loss of the business service, to criminal charges. Then ask when you can recover the items as none of the above are necessary if "We take care of this together right away :-)"

4. If you run into a jackass as offered in your scenario, pull pitch with a big smile and leave. Drive or walk away at least a block before writing down in your client notebook EXACTLY what just took place. Then report it to your boss and ask his or her guidance per policy and procedure. It ain't your stuff, it's his or hers. It ain't worth your safety to recover, nor your job if you go to guns over an overdue video or unpaid bill. That's what lawyers, the law, and the courts are for. Your best service to the boss is a well conducted contact call or letter (certified), an arranged visit, a positive, helpful attitude, good notes throughout, and above average judgement.

5. DO NOT carry or use any form of SD item or weapon on the job unless authorized by your employer. If you violate this precept you will lose any way you cut it. Cell phones are a good thing, too. Be professional, environmentally aware of your surroundings, able to improvise an SD weapon if necessary, and able to use solid empty hand and fleet-of-feet skills if called upon to do so. Again, a paper can aways be sent or delivered through an attorney, and an item can always be reported stolen and replaced by insurance or otherwise. Your career, reputation, and health are not so easily substituted.

Good scenario. Real world and applicable.
 
Yup, feets don't fail me now. :D

So motivated, even at 43 years of age and 30 pounds over my high-school weight, I still think I could do the first flight of five stairs in a single bound, take one jump and vault the rail on the landing, and be on the front lawn before the paluka could get off a swing. From there, you could continue the negotiations over those late WWF videos.
 
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