In and out of Bounds Non Supporting dealers and photo threads

[Danke42]

So recently in the trads sub a block of images and discussion was moved offline due to it involving a Great Eastern Cutlery SFO for a particular knife.

The photo's of the knives with the blade etch were pulled. Further a side discussion with the guy from the dealer and a buyer was pulled. Note that the buyer was a very low post member who may have signed up to start the discussion and the dealer signed up to reply to the discussion.

Going forward is it OK to post images of knives from SFOs, and Sprints, and dealer exclusive blades to the site. This goes far beyond the trads sub as many other brands and sites do special runs that can only be bought through their store. As an example there are many discussions involving Bento Box Shop knives that crop up on a regular basis and they're not on the current list.

 

[rycen]

If they’re not listed in the supporting dealers thread they shouldn’t be mentioned. If the name is printed on the blade or handle,box in the picture I guess that shouldn’t be posted either. We can talk about the knife just not where to get it.

Also keep in mind we can’t see everything.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/paid-dealer-members-list-updated-10-21-2018.1089879/

 

[knarfeng]

Here's the guidelines from the 9-year old sticky written by Blues in the Traditional Forum about vendor referrals. It's pretty clear on the matter.

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/vendor-links-referrals-endorsements.754956/

In order to avoid violations of bladeforums.com's "Terms Of Service" (TOS) or our own sub-forum guidelines, please refrain from posting vendor links, referrals and/or endorsements within our threads as well as directing our members toward a particular commercial site.
("Deal & Bargain Spotting" is a violation of the TOS)

Let's keep our threads focused on the discussion of traditional knives, not vendors and their web sites.

The exception to the rule above is that you may refer other members to dealers who support bladefrums.com via a "Dealer" membership. Refer to the Paid Dealer Members List ( Updated 10/21/2018 ).

(The "Feedback" section remains the proper venue to report your recommendations and experiences, both good and bad, with vendors, dealers, makers etc.
You may also share links and vendor recommendations with one another privately via email or PM.)

As regards images, in the case of production knives the manufacturer's website is often a good resource for both pictures and descriptions of knives you wish to display and discuss. (The same holds true for many custom makers' websites.)
Please crop out details identifying vendors in posted images to avoid potential issues with the TOS.

(If your membership level does not afford you the ability to upload images directly to bladeforums.com then you may wish to explore free or paid image hosting services. There are several options available.)

Thanks for your cooperation.

Further info regarding potential TOS issues can be found here.

"Traditional Forum" guidelines can be read here.

Rules for the "Exchange Forums" and regarding commerce conducted on this site can be read here.

 

[Danke42]

That all sounds fair and reasonable. I would guess there has been some drift lately regarding this rule.

As long as folks are clear on where the line is they can work with it.

 

[B.F.U]

We needed a place to discuss this outside of the thread that is dedicated to the #29 pattern run of 2019.


Here are some pertinent posts:

New forum member and first post here. I am so impressed with my new Burnt Sienna 29 (and recent trip to the GEC rendezvous) that I registered just so I could join in.

I can't wait to get my 29 out to my woodshop. I think that sheep foot is going to make a great marking knife. It looks like the width of the blade is just about right to match the kerf on my handsaw when cutting dovetails. The punch will be handy for starting bits etc. A beautiful knife I can't wait to put to work.

Sorry guys, The particular dealer that's been showing up here, in multiple posts and quotes, is not a contributing BF dealer. All the posts and quotes, even those just showing the blade etch, are being moved offline.
I don't want to spend my day moving more, please. Thanks.

Theres some TKCs right up there one the last few pages, and my M&G a few pages back, whole threads dedicated to Sheffields with etch all over the blade. Manufacturers aren't supposed to advertise any more than a dealer, and every knife on this forum has a manufacturer etch of stamp on the blade and often sheath. Bout have to shut down the forum if we did that. Its crazy.

I'm not trying to be difficult, or whatever either, I said I understand the name dropping (not really but okay) and link sharing, etc, but just because you post a knife with an etch "required by GEC" on any SFO knife, and you cant post pictures of it, thats nuts.

I can't really put into words how disappointing this censorship is, but hey, I can follow the rules.

View attachment 1188190

I fully support deleting comments from non-paying dealers. Maintenance costs on a site like this are not cheap.
The post from the dealer was directly related to his business of selling knives. He was using these forums as customer service for his profit generating business.
I'm sure he would be welcomed here if he paid for a membership like several other dealers do.

Calling this censorship is incorrect and devalues the word.

What I referred to as censorship was deleting of photos that had a blade etch on them. Posted by paying members. Nothing to do with dealers or anyone else trying to make money off the site.

Here's the sticky from Blues which has been in place up on the front page of the Traditional Forum for almost 10 years.


The dealers who have dealer memberships pay a large part of the costs of keeping BladeForums up and running. In my mind it is fair to refrain from promoting their competitors.

My thoughts are as follows:

First, I don't really understand GEC's new policy. Is it to make SFOs more easily recognizable as SFOs? As soon as a patina develops the etch matters little. Is it to make SFOs less desirable? Certainly some people love etches, and some etches are great when they fit the knife, but I think the general response so far (at least here on BF) has been negative.

Second, I do think it would best for Austin to be and post as a supporting dealer (IF it works financially). I honestly think that he could do a great job of it and that he would gain customers by it. But I do totally understand why he has stayed away.

Third, I think the most pertinent comment above is the one regarding this rule being enforced equally. It seems to me that MANY knives are posted with etches from brands, manufacturers, dealer, etc. that are not supporters of BF. Is that the case? If I misunderstand the rule, or missed a post in regard to it, please let me know.

I'm here to learn and start a discussion.

 

[mb>]

Wow I missed this. Kind of a crazy dilemma. I guess we’ll be seeing a lot more pile side pictures.

It’s like a mini-legal system here. Someone has to appeal to set some new case law precedent.

Edit: here’s my appeal. GEC, please stop these mandatory etches. I’m not a fan of etches in general, but the new ones are too much.

 

[hhmoore]

I missed the whole thing...but, if GEC is marking the blades with the shop name, I'm not buying the knife - I don't care what it is. I refused to buy knives from massdrop because of their labeling, this is no different.

 

[Mayonardo]

This isn’t about whether one likes or dislikes etches. Nor, whether one will buy etched blades. There are two issues.

One, is it wrong for a non-supporting dealer to make one post to honestly let people know why they might not receive their purchases? That is, by no stretch, advertising.

Two, paid BF members who display their purchases which show that the knife was not from a supporting dealer are not advertising for that dealer or manufacturer. They are showing their knife. All of the knife. Members are being punished for an infraction of a rule meant for non supporting dealers.

Followed to its logical conclusion (ad absurdum) I will have to keep a reference list of all supporting dealers, makers and manufacturers (and know which are still in business) and never post a reference or photo with that information in it.

Or, since I am a paid up member and not a dealer, I can post whatever I want as long as it is not an advertisement or complaint referencing any dealer, maker or manufacturer and let the moderators do their jobs and delete what they consider outside the rules.

Common sense and fair play here would be a step in the right direction.

 

[Norcaldude]

is it wrong for a non-supporting dealer to make one post to honestly let people know why they might not receive their purchases? That is, by no stretch, advertising.

It is advertising. The dealer can contact those customers via emails and almost certainly did. Posting about the issue and how fairly they resolved it on a public message board like this, one they don't even know if all the impacted customers even read or know about, is advertising. It's not stretch to call it advertising, it just obviously is advertising.

 

[knifeswapper]

My suspicion is that the mods were forced into a position of enforcing the rules - and when they enter that mode, they are going to enforce it to the letter. It is like watching for NFL offside calls. They almost never call it unless it is blatant; but after they call it one time, you better mind your fingers for the next couple series.

A well meaning BF member posted large pictures of the new delivery with signage of several types - and excitedly mentioned that non-BF dealer. Thus, I think etches and other respective dealer discussion got caught up in the rest of the cleanup. Maybe not, but that was my observation.

But, here is the rub in my opinion. In 2019, we are now knee deep in the social media craze. And part of this craze is the introduction of "influencers". I have had customers contact me and infer that if I pick them out the best example or offer some other type of advantage - they will mention me favorably on social media. Thus, there are folks that will essentially advertise for dealers for some sort of recompense. Although that has not been a problem on BladeForums; the rules to avoid it have to be fairly enforced for all. Thus, an excited customer of a non-BF dealer ends up innocently looking a lot like what we would expect an "influencer" to look like.

I must agree that the big part of what is discussed in the traditional sub is GEC; and GEC has now required SFO's to have dealer etch's. Thus, to preclude images of those knives is a bit tough. But had it not been for other circumstances, things seemed to be flowing without a problem.

We all have some venue in which we have to make/enforce policies or rules. And hopefully we can all agree that those policies should be enforced equally. And given that, if you look at it from different angles many times it is easier to understand these types of actions. I got my hand slapped several times by the good mods here early on; and have seen it done many times in the past. To be honest, it is about as relaxed (generally) these days as any time in the last 15 years.

 

[Mayonardo]

Intent is irrelevant. Be in this list Paid Dealer Members List ( Updated 10/21/2018 )
or your business can’t be mentioned or shown regardless. That seems to be the rule.

 

[B.F.U]

My suspicion is that the mods were forced into a position of enforcing the rules - and when they enter that mode, they are going to enforce it to the letter. It is like watching for NFL offside calls. They almost never call it unless it is blatant; but after they call it one time, you better mind your fingers for the next couple series.

A well meaning BF member posted large pictures of the new delivery with signage of several types - and excitedly mentioned that non-BF dealer. Thus, I think etches and other respective dealer discussion got caught up in the rest of the cleanup. Maybe not, but that was my observation.

But, here is the rub in my opinion. In 2019, we are now knee deep in the social media craze. And part of this craze is the introduction of "influencers". I have had customers contact me and infer that if I pick them out the best example or offer some other type of advantage - they will mention me favorably on social media. Thus, there are folks that will essentially advertise for dealers for some sort of recompense. Although that has not been a problem on BladeForums; the rules to avoid it have to be fairly enforced for all. Thus, an excited customer of a non-BF dealer ends up innocently looking a lot like what we would expect an "influencer" to look like.

I must agree that the big part of what is discussed in the traditional sub is GEC; and GEC has now required SFO's to have dealer etch's. Thus, to preclude images of those knives is a bit tough. But had it not been for other circumstances, things seemed to be flowing without a problem.

We all have some venue in which we have to make/enforce policies or rules. And hopefully we can all agree that those policies should be enforced equally. And given that, if you look at it from different angles many times it is easier to understand these types of actions. I got my hand slapped several times by the good mods here early on; and have seen it done many times in the past. To be honest, it is about as relaxed (generally) these days as any time in the last 15 years.

Well said, Mike. I agree. I also got my hand slapped a (good) few times early on, and deserved it. I don't think the modding has changed, I think the crux is GEC's etch policy. I don't really understand the reasoning.

Anyone have any idea?

 

[knifeswapper]

Well said, Mike. I agree. I also got my hand slapped a (good) few times early on, and deserved it. I don't think the modding has changed, I think the crux is GEC's etch policy. I don't really understand the reasoning.

Anyone have any idea?

No idea. GEC wants it to be clear to anyone looking at a knife - that it was an SFO. But as to the exact reason for that - I don't know.

 

[knarfeng]

My suspicion is that the mods were forced into a position of enforcing the rules - and when they enter that mode, they are going to enforce it to the letter. It is like watching for NFL offside calls. They almost never call it unless it is blatant; but after they call it one time, you better mind your fingers for the next couple series.

A well meaning BF member posted large pictures of the new delivery with signage of several types - and excitedly mentioned that non-BF dealer. Thus, I think etches and other respective dealer discussion got caught up in the rest of the cleanup. Maybe not, but that was my observation.

But, here is the rub in my opinion. In 2019, we are now knee deep in the social media craze. And part of this craze is the introduction of "influencers". I have had customers contact me and infer that if I pick them out the best example or offer some other type of advantage - they will mention me favorably on social media. Thus, there are folks that will essentially advertise for dealers for some sort of recompense. Although that has not been a problem on BladeForums; the rules to avoid it have to be fairly enforced for all. Thus, an excited customer of a non-BF dealer ends up innocently looking a lot like what we would expect an "influencer" to look like.

I must agree that the big part of what is discussed in the traditional sub is GEC; and GEC has now required SFO's to have dealer etch's. Thus, to preclude images of those knives is a bit tough. But had it not been for other circumstances, things seemed to be flowing without a problem.

We all have some venue in which we have to make/enforce policies or rules. And hopefully we can all agree that those policies should be enforced equally. And given that, if you look at it from different angles many times it is easier to understand these types of actions. I got my hand slapped several times by the good mods here early on; and have seen it done many times in the past. To be honest, it is about as relaxed (generally) these days as any time in the last 15 years.

That's a pretty fair assessment of the situation, Mike. If pictures with the etch had been posted without the blurb for the dealer, it would have been ignored and we would not find ourselves discussing this.

and GEC has now required SFO's to have dealer etch's.

I seldom buy GEC's, and I certainly don't track with their policies, so this is news to me. Probably news to the site owner and to most of the mod staff, as well. None of us are GEC people.

Taking that into consideration, my personal assessment is that going forward if the etch says "Bill's knife shop" or some other easily traceable etch, then I'm likely going to pull the picture. This is especially so if that site sells more than GEC knives. If it's just a set of cryptic initials, likely not. There is still some discussion among the staff. But, that's my feeling on the issue. I'll come back and correct that, if necessary.

This is setting up Gary and I to make some judgement calls, likely not everyone will agree with how we call it. Just remember, "The decisions of the judges are final." And if the limits get pushed, we will likely go back to a draconian interpretation of the rules.

Note: Displaying the box or other paraphernalia which advertise the dealer's contact info is still prohibited.

 

[Norcaldude]

Does the new GEC blade etch rule for SFOs specify what the blade etch has to say?

 

[Danke42]

Does the new GEC blade etch rule for SFOs specify what the blade etch has to say?

I think there is somewhat of a box they have to stay in.

 

[knifeswapper]

Does the new GEC blade etch rule for SFOs specify what the blade etch has to say?

GEC doesn't have a set of written guidelines. But I think the general expectation is that the etch would readily identify the contracting dealer.

 

[LastRodeo]

I don't post alot of photos of my knives, so my opinion may not matter as much, but I have always been aware of the not promoting non BF dealer rule. It's pretty easy to not show that side of the blade or keep the blade closed in the photo though.

 

[r8shell]

Intent is irrelevant. Be in this list Paid Dealer Members List ( Updated 10/21/2018 )
or your business can’t be mentioned or shown regardless. That seems to be the rule.

knarfeng , In addition to the dealers on that linked list, am I right in assuming we can show and discuss SFOs from members here with Knifemaker memberships? (following the guidelines about discussing the knives and not the buying process, of course) The blade etch on my Lick Creek Boy's Knife is almost entirely obscured by patina now, so it should be okay either way, right?

 

[craytab]

Sounds very fair and reasonable. Why some people just now aren't understanding the rules is beyond me. The examples brought up in the #29 thread are ridiculously ignoring basic reason and logic. No paid dealer = no advertising. Simple.

The bigger issue is gec requiring dealer billboards on traditional knives