In Appreciation of the Thin Edge

misque

misque

Joined
Jul 9, 1999
Messages
3,316
Over the years, the last few in particular, I've been watching a trend toward knives with these sometimes hugely thick edges.
I'm a bit of a Cold Steel fan(reformed) and they have been the leaders of the pack in this trend. Especially with their fixed blades. Their Voyagers are pretty thin edged. A good thing as far as I'm concerned.
I used to rave about the SRK and the Recon Tanto and so on, BUT, come time to do some fine cutting or sometimes ANY cutting would make these seemingly razor sharp knives balk. Often the cut would turn into a tear or a rip that would have me shaving the hair on my arm until nary a one was to be found checking to see if, in fact, the knife really had any edge at all. Turned out, it wasn't the edge, it was the thickness behind the edge.
My frustration has been growing with these thick edged beasts gradually, almost impereceptively really, until yesterday when it finally came to a head.
My wife and I were enjoying a day off at EPCOT's Fountain View coffee shop. We were sharing a Tiramisu dessert and it needed to be cut. I whipped out my handy-dandy 710 Axis to make short work of this task and proceeded to tear the living daylights out of this paltry pastry. Try as I may, this scary sharp device's relatively thick edge would not slice the Tiramisu without totally annhilating it into a pile of sweet yuck.
As we sat eating it with a straw, it occured to me that a great deal of my cutting chores need a thinner edged blade. Had I taken my Avalanche, my Native, the lg. Calypso or even my G-10 Spydie Police model, this would not have happened.
It also occured to me that the easiest times I've ever had with cutting chores in general were done with thin edged knives. From cutting plant stems for grafting purposes to cutting 3/4" Manila rope and thick cardboard boxes, the thin edged blade always glided thru the task with relative ease.
I understand that the thick edged knife has it's place in tasks like chopping or powering thru things, but my life is not one of high adventure where my Sifu or SRK may be needed to cleave an assailant's offending hand off at the wrist or some such thing.
rolleyes.gif

My life is one of mundane things with the occasional offending bush branch that needs cleaving being the closest thing to high adventure. The older I get, the more happy I am that this is thus.
This is not to say that I am getting rid of all my pointed cleavers. On the contrary, I'm on the verge of ordering an Ang Khola Khukuri from HI to help me keep the foliage around my house from coming into the house. I'm also quite pleased with the BK&T Brute that I just got. I just don't need to have these knives with me at all times, don'tchaknow!
I'm just seeing, at long last, that the everyday knife I need with me needs to be a thinner edge for those mundane, but important, cutting chores that I run across in the course of my day.
Thin edges RULE!

So, this has been my monthly epiphany.

Are you carrying the knife that really fits your everyday needs, or are you following the latest cutlery trend?
Or does the latest cutlery trend fit your everyday needs?

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The individualist without strategy who takes opponents lightly will inevitably become the captive of others.
Sun Tzu
 
Amen misque!
I too have noticed this trend of late, especially where Benchmades are concerned, but also with some nice custom knives as well. I imagine this has a lot to do with keeping manufacturing costs down, and a little to do with keeping the corporate lawyers happy.

I also try not to be overly abusive of my daily carry folders, and thus have developed a fondness for the improved cutting efficiency that a thinner edge affords.

My solution has been to simply reprofile the edges on most of the folders that comprise my rotation of daily carry knives. The confidence I have developed in my abilities with the Edge Pro Apex are largely to thank for this recent development. I even knocked down the angle on my Sebenza several degrees and saw a noticeable improvement. Before I owned my Edge Pro, I would have been very hesitant to attempt this on a $300 knife. Now, I don't even give it a second thought.

I will say that my BM 710HS looks a little funny now with a 1/8th inch band of gleaming polished metal running around the edge (in contrast to the jet black BT2 coating on the rest of the blade). FWIW misque, the out-of-the-box edge on my MicroTech SOCOM was excellent.

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Semper Fi
 
I obviously agree, I've been saying the same thing for a while. Say, have you seen my article "How to Make the Benchmade Axis Perform"? It will get your Axis performing like you won't believe, though it'll take some elbow grease to re-profile the edge. In my tests, using a particular piece of hard poly rope, my 710 can make it very close to all the way through all 3 superstrands of the rope, whereas a stock 710 usually won't do better than 1/3 the way through the first strand. Look at the math there -- the difference is astounding.

Article is at: http://www.bladeforums.com/ubb/Forum3/HTML/000560.html

For me, my best edge is:

- the thinnest edge I can get, without having the edge chip or roll too badly on my hardest jobs.

- the coarsest edge that still performs adequately on whatever push-cut jobs I have. Since I -- and I believe most people -- do much more slicing than push-cutting, I believe most people are polishing their edges way too fine, and losing a ton of performance.

Joe
 
Joe,
I saw your article a long while back and made a half-assed attempt at it and as time went by I completely forgot about it.
I'm glad you reminded me, now I'll go back and re-read your article to refresh myself and see it thru. A performing Axis is on the top of my priorities list all of a sudden. Hmmm...what causes that?

Bronco,
I think I will take the thick edged folders I really like and start thinning those edges down, funny looking or not, I would rather have performance over good looks any day. After the Axis gets the treatment, my Military is next in line. Mine is pretty thick at the bevels. It's time to correct that.
biggrin.gif


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The individualist without strategy who takes opponents lightly will inevitably become the captive of others.
Sun Tzu
 
I figured this out before most of our BF members were born. If the primary purpose of a knife is to cut, rather than to chop, thin is the way to go. For me the epiphany came when I discovered that thick blades did a very poor job on the simple task of sharpening a pencil. It's interesting how subtle a task that can be. Later I performed a bunch of slash tests and came to the same conclusion. I like thin fully tapered blades or thicker hollow ground ones. Thick blades, sabre grinds, and convex edges belong on bayonets where you have to withstand the weight of a rifle behind your blows.
 
I have struggled with all kinds of thick edge problems.I have had 6 benchmades and gave them all up,because they simply did not cut well.I did sharpen my Axis according to Joe's method and got good results but was still unsatisfied.I've had some customs that also did not cut well.I've been embarrassed a few times by my expensive thick edged blades that did not perform for me.
All Spydercos can cut.Why can't BM's.
I now own and use a Sebenza and this thing can cut and has never let me down,even when dull.Great post.Thanks
scott
 
And if you try push-cutting through sisal rope with one of Ed Schott's 12 degree (included angle) blades (6 degree edge bevels), you'll get a whole new appreciation for the fact that CPM 3V remains tougher in the high hardness ranges than any other blade material for which we have published data--meaning that for a given application, you can go thinner in 3V than in anything else we have specs on so far.



[This message has been edited by WILL YORK (edited 06-02-2000).]
 
I have a Benchmade Leopard that cuts as well as my wifes Spyderco Delica. Of course it has a flat grind all the way to the spine of the blade. I have a REKAT Carnivore on order, how thick is the edge on that? When you talk about reprofile the edge what are talking about precisely?
 
I agree. I thinned out the edge on my AFCK quite a bit. I double ground it and the first grind is 2.5 millimetres (close to 1/8") wide!!!! It is easy to sharpen as a burr pops up fast. I just got a Sentinel and as soon as the factory edge dulls I'll be thinning it out quite a bit too. The point was made already but it is worth repeating- don't abuse your knife and a thin edge works soooooo much better. I don't hack through boxes with my AFCK and I check for stapled beforehand. Also, I steel my blade almost daily. Take a little care of your knife and a thin edge will take care of a lot of material that gets in your way.

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"Come What May..."
 
Easyrider,
When you hold the edge side up and look at the edge down the length of the blade you'll see the the bevels that were ground to make the sharp edge. The thickness at the point where the sharp edge's bevel begins is the source of many a knifenuts frustration. If that area is really thick it wedges between the material that you are attempting to cut. The very edge, where the actual cutting action takes place, is no longer in contact with the material that you are trying to cut. That thickness above the bevel has pried the material apart to the point where the edge is not touching the material being cut. This causes tearing and ripping instead of cutting. Thinning out that area allows the very edge to once again make contact with the material being cut. Thinning the actual bevel itself also increases the cutting action of your knife by decreasing the amount of resistance the edge encounters from the material being cut. I think.
smile.gif


I hope I explained this correctly. If Cliff Stamp or Joe Talmadge see your Q, I'm sure they will be able to explain it better.

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The individualist without strategy who takes opponents lightly will inevitably become the captive of others.
Sun Tzu

[This message has been edited by misque (edited 06-02-2000).]

[This message has been edited by misque (edited 06-02-2000).]
 
Thanks misque. If I understand you the; point where the bevel opens up to the full width of the blade or behind the the bevel is too thick on some knives. Right? I just reread your explanation again and I get it now. Thank you. Can the edge be thinned out with a Sharpmaker or does it requre flat stones, Lansky ect.?
 
I have a Bailey Bradshaw large KD folder that has an incredibly thin edge. I just checked it and it is less than 1/32"! The blade is CPM440V and it keeps cutting with minimal effort.

Bailey has a new knife company called Whitewing knives. The blades are made from CPM3V. In the picture I can just barely see the edge bevels. These should be really good cutting knives.

Whitewing Pictures

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Chuck Bybee
titanium.man@gte.net
http://www.titanium-man.com
 
Easyrider,
Yes you can certainly reprofile your edge with a Sharpmaker, but I think most will agree that the going can be a little slow. Your flat stones would probably be a better bet. I specifically mentioned the Edge Pro Apex in my post above because it gets the job done fairly quickly and gives you great control maintaining precise edge angles.

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Semper Fi
 
I think that is why I have been so impressed with my Al Mar Eagle. The thin AUS8 blade cuts everything easily.
 
Truth be told, I think one of the primary reasons the sebenzas are so popular is due to the thin blade (with the hollow grind, the spydie wegners are in there too). I know it's why the sebenza stays in my pocket and it's also why my BM 705 didn't last long as a daily carry (gotta get around to reprofiling that knife).

I just reprofiled my Busse Mean Street. Still not a slicer but a little more versatile. I'm working on my Badger Attack right now. I don't want to destroy the tough edge on either of these knives but I do want to enhance their slicing abilities a wee bit. They are tough enough, they can take some reprofiling and still be a knife you can "abuse".

All my whittling knives are profiled like a razor blade. It is amazing how much wood I can whittle away before I have to put the blades on a hone. Thin edges will hold up fairly well when used correctly, even in some reasonably mild steel.

Around the home here, the best combo for me has been a small sebenza in the pocket for slicing and the mean street on the hip for tougher work, prying, and hammering.

Another great slicing knife is the Opinel. They will easily outslice most of the high-dollar production folders out there for one simple reason. Profile.

Great thread, misque. Note that this "thick vs thin" is a debate that's as old as the hills. I think I started a similar thread quite a while back (sans tiramisu
smile.gif
). If you read all the old timey outdoorsman books, they sing the praises of a thin bladed hunting knife. Today, chopping seems to be the buzzword. Not so long ago, slicing was the primary concern of most outdoorsman types. Chopping was something reserved for an axe or a hatchet.



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Hoodoo

The low, hoarse purr of the whirling stone—the light-press’d blade,
Diffusing, dropping, sideways-darting, in tiny showers of gold,
Sparkles from the wheel.

Walt Whitman
 
I only use thin edge knives period. I have never even purchased a knife with a thick edge in many years, however, I could re-profile a thick edge with my Edge Pro.
I always order custom knives with a thin grind because they cut better. I use a hatchet or machette where a thin edge would not do the job at hand.
 
W O N D E R F U L,
You found out that knives shall cut.
Congratulation.
Happy sharpening
smile.gif


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D.T. UTZINGER
 
Larry & Hoodoo--
I agree. I don't know where the notion came from that a belt knife needs to be able to clear timber. In National Wilderness and National Forest areas available for camping, hunting and backpacking, clearing campsites and cutting tent poles and pegs is illegal or at least considered environmentally immoral. In National Parks, cutting green wood is definitely illegal.
For firewood, it doesn't take much of a knife to split some kindling, and only deadfall timber should be burned, which means chopping up firewood really isn't necessary. One can always break up some larger stuff by stomping it, then put the ends of a couple of logs together to start the fire and continue pushing them into the fire as they burn down.
I find a 4-5" blade knife with a nice thin blade and acute edge bevel is a pleasure for any hunting or camp chore short of chopping, and in a pinch or that rare survival situation, one can certainly do what needs be done with such a knife.
For purposefully clearing brush or timber on private land, machetes, hatchets and axes are much more effective than any puny knife blade--better yet, get a chainsaw.
IMO--Will
 
Het fellas. I am all about the thin edge!! I carry a large Sebenza all the time and it's nice. If you want some real performance, though check out RJ Martin, Hartsfield, JSP, and my newfound friend Murray Carter. These are great - no secondary edge bevel. Also, a lot of Kellam Puukkos are fantastic. For production knives, I think Spyderco, Boye and William Henry are great performers.

-Bart
 
Oh, and what about the Cold Steel Bush Ranger? Come to think of it, CS has a bunch of thin edges - Voyager, BushMan...... Don't knock them, they just do what the market thinks is hot.

Confession: I must blushingly admit that I have a real thing for my old Becker Campanion, though I have thinned the edge some.

-Bart
 
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