I know that this has been questioned to death but I will ask it again anyway.How soft is infi steel?I know it has an RC of around 60 or so but due to the extremes in which it can flex,it must be softer than 60 ,yes?Also if the edge will roll and not chip I therefore once again coclude it must be softer than average carbon steel?If it also can be sharpened easier than most steels it must be softer.Could this softness effect a convex edge rather than the assym edge.Does this mean that a convexx edge Busse(a thinner edge)will roll much easier than an assym edge Busse?And one last question once again is infi a carbon steel or a stainless like BG-42 or CPM-30,where does it stand??
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INFI steel question????
- Thread starter marsupial
- Start date
FYI INFI Alloy ...
IMHO a steel that is hardened to 60 HRC does not necessarily have to break easily. It can be flexible, "elastic" to a certain extent. Like a spring e.g. Looking at the INFI alloy there are some elements like Co, Ni and V. To put things simple let's say these ingredients allow for a finer grain and enhance toughness, provided that a proper heat treatment was applied.
Hope that helps.
Regards
Mark23
IMHO a steel that is hardened to 60 HRC does not necessarily have to break easily. It can be flexible, "elastic" to a certain extent. Like a spring e.g. Looking at the INFI alloy there are some elements like Co, Ni and V. To put things simple let's say these ingredients allow for a finer grain and enhance toughness, provided that a proper heat treatment was applied.
Hope that helps.
Regards
Mark23
Marsupial,
I think you are confusing different properties. Hardness has more to do with resistance to deformation. Ductility has more to do with how much it can be flexed without taking a set or breaking. As for the edge's tendency to roll instead of chip, this pertains to yet a third property: toughness--which has to do with it's impact resistance, with how "un-brittle" the material is.
Perhaps one can generalize that softer materials tend to be more flexible than harder materials, but it's certainly not always the case. I've encountered spring steel which was quite flexible and balsa wood which was quite inflexible, despite the fact that the steel was far, far harder.
INFI has an exceptional blend of ductility and toughness for such hardness. It's exceptional--and thus very popular and highly praised--but certainly not impossible. This ductility and toughness do not, of themselves, constitute a meaningful refutation to hardness.
I see no patent incongruity between INFI's hardness, and it's toughness and ductility. Likewise, I see no reason to suspect that the 60 RC rating is inaccurate or dishonest.
--Mike
I think you are confusing different properties. Hardness has more to do with resistance to deformation. Ductility has more to do with how much it can be flexed without taking a set or breaking. As for the edge's tendency to roll instead of chip, this pertains to yet a third property: toughness--which has to do with it's impact resistance, with how "un-brittle" the material is.
Perhaps one can generalize that softer materials tend to be more flexible than harder materials, but it's certainly not always the case. I've encountered spring steel which was quite flexible and balsa wood which was quite inflexible, despite the fact that the steel was far, far harder.
INFI has an exceptional blend of ductility and toughness for such hardness. It's exceptional--and thus very popular and highly praised--but certainly not impossible. This ductility and toughness do not, of themselves, constitute a meaningful refutation to hardness.
I see no patent incongruity between INFI's hardness, and it's toughness and ductility. Likewise, I see no reason to suspect that the 60 RC rating is inaccurate or dishonest.
--Mike
I am not really questioning the rc of infi,and I know that its a tough steel I have been using it for several years now.What I am seeing is infi's difference in the other steels I haved used in years past.A knife may be tough but if it rolls before it chips it has to be softer,common sense says that the more dense a substance is the more likely it will shatter or chip before it will deform.That basic principle should almost apply to all materials.Stainless steel for example like 440 will not give nearly as much and will break before it bends much.SS is also harder to sharpen than carbon steels.Therefore I must conclude that SS is of denser composition than carbon.Harder is not always better esp for a knife.So my question stands is infi a softer steel than most other steels?
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But each material is different. Hardness is a guide to how it will resist deformation, but different steels have different levels of strength/toughness/ductility/wear resistance/whatever at that same hardness. That's why there are so many different steels that use a relatively common hardness like 60Rc, but display huge differences in all aspects of performance. So IMO, no. INFI isn't softer. It just has different properties than the next steel that make it react differently. I think that's true of just about every steel out there. If they were all equal, we wouldn't have umpteen steel types to wade through, and discuss the advantages or disadvantages of.
Where's the fun in that?
Marsupial,
"A knife may be tough but if it rolls before it chips it has to be softer,common sense says that the more dense a substance is the more likely it will shatter or chip before it will deform."
That's just not the way the universe works. Firstly, density and hardness have little to do with each other. Water is much denser than most woods, but is also a heck of a lot softer. Carbon in diamond form is the second hardest substance known, but it's a lot less dense than lead, which is soft enough to bend thick pieces by hand (at room temperature).
I don't want this to sound rude, but you are confusing together ductility, strength, density, toughness, and hardness in ways that don't make sense. Resistance to deformation, plasticity, density, and structural integrity, are independent variables from each other.
Whether a material chips or rolls has to do with lots of factors, such as molecular structure, macro structure (grain structure, or crystalline structure, or fibers, etc.), strength of bonds, and aspects of quantum electrodynamics which I barely understand and couldn't explain. But one thing it doesn't have to do with is density. There are kinds of mushrooms (Lactarius species, Russula species) which are quite soft and porous, but shatter before they bend. Styrofoam will chip or shatter before it takes very much deformation, but it's very soft and not very dense at all. Also, if there is a correlation between hardness and ductility, it is an oblique one, not a direct relationship.
"Stainless steel for example like 440 will not give nearly as much and will break before it bends much.SS is also harder to sharpen than carbon steels.Therefore I must conclude that SS is of denser composition than carbon."
That's just not the way it works. This is no indication one way or another about the comparative density of stainless steel and carbon steel. The exact particulars probably vary somewhat from steel to steel, regardless of whether stainless or carbon steel. I would venture to guess that most steels are pretty similar in density.
"So my question stands is infi a softer steel than most other steels?"
No. It's heat treated to about 60 RC. Most knife steels are used somewhat softer than that, I think.
--Mike
"A knife may be tough but if it rolls before it chips it has to be softer,common sense says that the more dense a substance is the more likely it will shatter or chip before it will deform."
That's just not the way the universe works. Firstly, density and hardness have little to do with each other. Water is much denser than most woods, but is also a heck of a lot softer. Carbon in diamond form is the second hardest substance known, but it's a lot less dense than lead, which is soft enough to bend thick pieces by hand (at room temperature).
I don't want this to sound rude, but you are confusing together ductility, strength, density, toughness, and hardness in ways that don't make sense. Resistance to deformation, plasticity, density, and structural integrity, are independent variables from each other.
Whether a material chips or rolls has to do with lots of factors, such as molecular structure, macro structure (grain structure, or crystalline structure, or fibers, etc.), strength of bonds, and aspects of quantum electrodynamics which I barely understand and couldn't explain. But one thing it doesn't have to do with is density. There are kinds of mushrooms (Lactarius species, Russula species) which are quite soft and porous, but shatter before they bend. Styrofoam will chip or shatter before it takes very much deformation, but it's very soft and not very dense at all. Also, if there is a correlation between hardness and ductility, it is an oblique one, not a direct relationship.
"Stainless steel for example like 440 will not give nearly as much and will break before it bends much.SS is also harder to sharpen than carbon steels.Therefore I must conclude that SS is of denser composition than carbon."
That's just not the way it works. This is no indication one way or another about the comparative density of stainless steel and carbon steel. The exact particulars probably vary somewhat from steel to steel, regardless of whether stainless or carbon steel. I would venture to guess that most steels are pretty similar in density.
"So my question stands is infi a softer steel than most other steels?"
No. It's heat treated to about 60 RC. Most knife steels are used somewhat softer than that, I think.
--Mike