INFI vs A2

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Jan 15, 2008
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How does Infi compare to A2 tool steel?

I know that Jerry used to used A2 years ago before he switched to Infi but if anyone can explain the differences and could back it up with user field experience, it might help me understand why he made the switch.

They're both tool steels (I think) but they're not the same.

Between the two, does anyone know the difference in:

1. Toughness, (prying, heavy use, chopping?)
2. Hardness, (edge holding ability?)
3. Ease of sharping?
4. Corrosion resistance (how easy or hard to resist rust?)
5. Cost (was it a factor in switching?)

I'm sure it's been discussed before but I couldn't find any direct comparisons.

Cheers,
AB.
 
How does Infi compare to A2 tool steel?

Between the two, does anyone know the difference in:

1. Toughness, (prying, heavy use, chopping?)
2. Hardness, (edge holding ability?)
3. Ease of sharping?
4. Corrosion resistance (how easy or hard to resist rust?)
5. Cost (was it a factor in switching?)

Well, based on my experience...

1. INFI is much tougher than A2. But then, there's always the heat treat question, and I do not have any A2 Busses, so I can't compare Busse A2 versus Busse INFI. But Busse INFI is certainly tougher than any other A2 I have used.

2. Edge holding, again, goes to INFI, but the same heat treat variable applies.

3. Sharpening is an interesting one. I would say that INFI is easier to maintain (steel & strop), but if you need to reprofile or sharpen out serious damage, then A2 is easier. But the differences aren't large.

4. INFI has much better corrosion resistance.

5. INFI is certainly more expensive to buy for the enduser, and I would be surprised if it wasn't more expensive to produce also for Busse.
 
1. In my experience they're both tough as hell. I have no Busse produced A2.
2. INFI holds an edge longer in my experience.
3. What Elen posted is right on IMO.
4. INFI has MUCH better corrosion resistance. A2 stains and rusts quite easily, once again, my experince.
5. INFI, being proprietary, is much more expensive and the Heat Treat/Cryo process has to add to the toughness and expense of INFI.
 
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Fair question, but for most Busse fans around here, INFI really is at a whole different level.

On the other hand, for most users, they really are both quite good.

I am sure others will chime in with their two cents. But, here is mine:



1. Toughness, (prying, heavy use, chopping?) - A2 is VERY tough and quite worthy as a tough blade in many lengths up to a point. But, INFI really is in a whole different league of toughness and great for pretty much ANY length or size blade. A2 is tough enough for most people on most knives, but A2 is generally not considered a first choice for large choppers and longer.
Bottom line: INFI is EASILY tougher!


2. Hardness, (edge holding ability?) - Again, A2 holds an edge fairly well and quite well for a knife with it's level of toughness. I think INFI has just a very slight advantage over A2 here. But, toughness vs. hardness is always the balance. I find in many cases there are quite a few exotic stainless blades right now hardened to higher hardness levels that hold an edge even longer. But, hardness levels have to be considered and are a factor that has to be considered when comparing and those high hardness exotic steels are NOT tough. They tend to be brittle.
However, for all I know, if you hardened INFI to 64 or similar levels, it might do even better at edge holding and still tougher (?????). INFI is generally not hardened as high as it could be hardened and there is a good reason. INFI is designed to be extreme use steel and UBER tough. So, there is a PROPER balance of toughness with hardness. Hardness levels are a factor in edge holding, but also for toughness. Balance is important. At it's common hardness, INFI holds an edge well compared to most knife steels. For me, that is good enough.

3. Ease of sharpening? - This has been strange for me. I find INFI is reasonable to sharpen and not too hard to get a good edge. It is not the easiest to sharpen, but not nearly as bad as many hard stainless steels. ATS-34, 154CM, S30V, D2 and many other more exotic type knife steels are all harder to sharpen IMO. That said, I find many of the simple non-stainless steels a bit easier than INFI to sharpen.
A2 is a bit easier for me to sharpen compared to INFI. But, not a huge difference.
What is weird though is that INFI is a PITA to grind on when trying to reprofile or similar. So, you would think it would be WAY harder to sharpen. Yet, I don't consider it too terribly hard to sharpen, just VERY hard to grind on (??????). Bottom line: A2 is still a bit easier to sharpen. INFI isn't bad. Other steels are easier than A2 and many steels are worse than both.

4. Corrosion resistance (how easy or hard to resist rust?) - INFI is WAY more corrosion resistant (EXCEPT for "De-CARB" blades!!!!.... long story. But, generally only related to "Competition Edge" blades. :( ). There are still some people who almost swear INFI is rust-proof. But, it is not. INFI will rust. But, (not including the "De-CARB" blades that rust WAY easier than the most highly prone to rust 10XX steels I have EVER seen. :(, regular INFI is WAY more resistant to rust than other non-stainless steels. However, A2 is actually quite good for a non-stainless. A2 has between 4.75% - 5.5% chromium which makes it significantly higher in chromium than most non-stainless steels. However, A2 patinas very easily when cutting food especially. Blues, grays, and yellow color patinas will form very readily with use of A2. But, I would say A2 does NOT rust very easily (* For a "Non"-stainless steel). And I would distinguish patina as a different characteristic from rust - even if similar.
However, there is a lot of chemistry involved to compare INFI to other non-stainless steels. Much of which I can't explain. Still, INFI has around 8.25% chromium which is VERY high for non-stainless and a significant factor aiding in corrosion resistance. The general rule of thumb is that you have to have greater than 10%-13% (depends???) of chromium to have stainless steel. Carbon content is a factor as well. INFI actually has pretty low carbon content compared to similar knife steels at about 0.5%. This also aids in corrosion resistance. However, INFI is made with some secret process and/or blend of Nitrogen which is currently very unique for knife steels and offers some amazing properties. Vanadium content and additions of other elements are also credited to aiding in INFI's HIGH level of corrosion content. In case you missed: A2 is pretty darn good at corrosion resistance for a non-stainless steel. But, INFI (as long as not a de-carb blade) is WAY more corrosion resistant and almost stainless in use.

5. Cost (was it a factor in switching?) - ??? - Was it a factor for who????
INFI obviously costs more than A2. However, Jerry's business model and success is obviously largely related to distinguishing his product from other products on the market... along with some other commendable marketing techniques that seem to be working quite well. "Toughness" for the types of knives Jerry makes is a HUGE factor in his success. So, even if INFI costs more, the toughness factor and "Mystique" associated with INFI and the Busse brand is HUGE! So, although INFI costs more, Jerry no doubt gambled a winning move by charging more for a unique UBER tough knife steel than using a much more common steel that other makers use. (*Even if Jerry's heat treat could probably get more out of A2 or other knife steels than a heat-treatment by other makers!) But, in all fairness, since nobody other than Jerry can buy raw INFI, nobody really knows how much INFI costs raw. It is safe to assume that INFI has a higher associated cost when grinding on. So, part of the reason INFI costs so much more for satin LE finishes. But, I still don't think the up-charge for satin is worth as much as the cost - my opinion (before certain people get up in arms). I WANT satin, but I am not willing to pay $200 - $330 more for satin over CG. But, that is a problem I will apparently have to face. I won't get satin INFI as others obviously ARE willing to pay for it.

Hope that helps.

.
 
Busse A2 knives have the same warranty as the INFI models. :thumbup:
I like both and have some A2 blades I wouldn't sell/trade just because they feel perfect and can do anything I ask of them.
INFI is probably tougher but I'll never abuse any of my knives to the point of being able to tell the difference unless it was a life or death situation and in that case I am 100% confident the INFI & A2 blades won't let me down.

piglet
 
These HOGs pretty much hit it on the head with their comparisons.

However, A-2 is killer cool steel!!!!. . . If we weren't using INFI, we'd still be using A-2.

Horton and Okuden make some sick blades out of the stuff and you can't go wrong with either of these makers. . . . Unless you decide to drink with Horton, in which case you'd better pack an extra liver!!!! :eek: :thumbup:

Jerry :D



.
 
You were wounded ,,, Boss,, I will take a raincheck,, till you are a fully functional Drinking Machine,, I wondered where you went,, thought you may have got contact off of teabaggs fatty and had to go get a snack,, lol,, thanks,, Boss,,
 
Infi is in no way superior to A2, In my opinion. Its edge holding is very similar, and sharpens just as easy as INFI.
 
INFI kicks butt all around!
Jerry is correct, along with Horton and Oku, Pohan Leu takes A2 into the beyond.
 
Wow DWRW! What a great reply! Yes it does help me. Thank you!

Thanks to all you other guys for your input (and quick reply). It's great to hear from you and from the Big Cheese himself!

I don't have anything in A2 yet but I like the sound of it. Those BRKT Bravo 1's look very tempting (in A2).

I still only have a single piece of infi at the moment (cg Ash1) but it's definitely my favorite edge at the moment. As for edge holding, I'm still going ok on the original factory edge with a very light touch up with a ceramic rod. I should really get around to convexing the edge when I get some time.

Got to go and sleep now. It's way way way too late for me here.

Cheers,
AB
 
Fair question, but for most Busse fans around here, INFI really is at a whole different level.

On the other hand, for most users, they really are both quite good.

I am sure others will chime in with their two cents. But, here is mine:

[Snipped an excellent answer as it's only a few posts above]

That is an excellent answer to the questions - so good that I've saved it!

I agree entirely and will just add a couple of bits...

Infi seems tough to reprofile or grind because it tends, in my experience, to clog the abrasive up very quickly. It has a 'gummy' feel and the stones/belts need cleaning quite frequently to maintain cutting efficiency.

I can rust A2 quite easily if the steel isn't protected by tuf-cloth. I seem to have corrosive skin - no joke, I can leave verdigris fingerprints on naked brass within a minute! Can't have a knife with brasswork for that reason.

My A2 Barkies have plenty of tiny rust spots on the exposed tangs, although some will say that A2 doesn't rust :confused:. Infi is much less prone to this even with my alien-sweaty-skin, although I have had the occasional little rust spot. I don't worry about my satin Busses but A2 I make sure to keep coated.
 
I don't have enough experience with A2 to comment about the rest, but, regarding cost:

If I'm remembering correctly, Jerry once said that INFI is costing him $90 per pound. I don't know how much A2 goes for, per pound, but it should be easy for you to find out.

My understanding is that $90 per pound is quite high for a steel used for cutlery. I'm not surprised that it is so expensive, since it is a proprietary steel which JB designed, himself, and has custom made for his exclusive use.

I don't know whether JB is factoring amortized cost for the research and development of INFI into that stated cost; I expect not – so the price would (in a sense) probably actually be more. Also, I don't know whether that $90 is including his costs for heat treatment and cryo treatment; again, I'd guess not – I think he meant just the cost of a bar of steel stock.

However, that was several years ago, and his business appears to have grown markedly. The greater volume with his current business has likely afforded some reduction in his costs.

Of course, there's a lot of speculation, here ... so decide for yourself. I imagine Jerry has no particular desire to share his business details, and I don't blame him.

What matters is what it's worth to the buyer. Speaking for me, personally: his knives are worth what he charges. So, speculation about cost may be interesting, but these answers would not likely sway my purchasing decisions.
 
Isn't it all in the heat treat? Didn't Jerry have a proprietary heat treat process for his A2 just like he has for his INFI?
 
Wear resistance and ductility at a rockwell of 55 to 63 along with INFI being less likely to rust.

A-2 is great stuff, INFI just does it better in a few areas.

People named Chip like A-2.

People named Dent like INFI?

A Fella called Flex likes SR-101.

Preferential,Proprietorial, Differential, the heat treats of Champions.
 
Isn't it all in the heat treat? Didn't Jerry have a proprietary heat treat process for his A2 just like he has for his INFI?

yes, but even with the astm standard for heat treatment (which is just a starting forumala, no tips tricks or special procedures, just the base formula to get a steel to a certain hardness) you will still get a good knife out of a2. the chemical spread is really good for what you want in a knife. maleability at high hardness, moderate corrosion resistance, shock resistance. I'm curious how it does at 64rc+ at extra thin cross sections...

it's worth noting that while infi has less then the required 14-17% chromium to qualify as a stainless steel, it has way less carbon then most cutlery grade stainless steels. every .10 percent of carbon saps up roughly 1.00 percent of the chromium into chromium carbides, removing a lot of their passivated properties within the steel matrix. infi has .50% carbon (looow for what you'd expect) and 8.5% chromium. that means you've got a full 3.5% free floating chromium. compare this to 440c at it's highest chromium ratio of .95 carbon and 18.00 chromium, that's 8.5% free floating chromium. at it's lowest chromium ratio of 1.2 carbon and 16% chromium it has only 4% free floating chromium.

so if you get a high carbon low chromium batch of 440c - infi can actually be very, very close to the same level of chromium based passivity. infi also has nickel (tensile strength, wear resistance, hardenability, toughness, shock resistance, lower crit temp, and corrosion resistance).

at least, thats how I learned it from the boards years ago :confused: I also recall nitrogen being present as a degassing/purifying element...


you can't tell everything from a composition chart, but you can tell a lot of how the steel will react. infi is a kind of wonder mix of awesomeness when handled properly. you would not be able to reproduce infi with this mix, you'd spend years trying to get a heat treat to get an acceptably spectacular level of performance out it.

INFI:
Carbon - .50
Chromium - 8.5
Molybdenum - 1.3
Vandium - .36
Cobalt - .95
Nickel - .74
Nitrogen - .11

A2:
Carbon - 1.0
Chromium - 5.3
molybdenum - 1.1
vanadium - .2
silicone - 0.3
manganese - 0.6

440c:
Carbon 0.95-1.20
Chromium 16.00-18.00
Molybdenum 0.75
Manganese 1.00
Silicone 1.00
Phosphorus 0.040
Sulphur 0.030
 
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I've got a cow-lick now....that little bit of INFI, err, I mean info, flew right over my head!
 
I've definitely noticed the gumminess of INFI - it lends its own bits of trickiness to reprofiling and sharpening edges. On the other hand, if you keep your abrasive clear, it's pretty easy to remove material - sometimes too easy, as it's not at all uncommon for my clumsy hands to go to the strop and round off the nice edge I just put on. Infi can take a bit of tinkering to figure out how to get it sharpened well, at least in my limited experience with it. I haven't experienced the same learning curve on any other new steel since I first learned to convex an edge.
 
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