Information overload, seeking help

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thaddeussmith

Joined
Oct 4, 2013
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I've collected a handful of other knives since my early 20's (I'm 31 now) and as I've started researching proper knife care I think I've been doing it all wrong when it comes to sharpening. They're mostly cheap knives or hand me downs, but now that I'm on the waiting list for a Koster MUCK and Bushmaster I want to make sure I fix my methods and start things off right.

I've looked into bench whetstones and other methods, but they seem to be most conducive for scandi or similar grinds. What tools or methods would you recommend I acquire for the two knives I've mentioned? If I'm understanding things correctly those two knives have a micro bevel, yes? I'm just at a total loss for what I need to do and feeling quite n00bish.

I've done the requisite search and it's just too much to sort through, so some focused links or product recommendations would be greatly appreciated.
 
I think the Lansky and Spyderco sharpeners are highly recommended, although I don't own either. :(

Just search "Lansky sharpener set" in Goggle and you can buy it from Amazon. Same for the Spyderco set.
 
A Lansky was my first sharpener, 20 or more years ago. It is not a bad system and, iirc, you can get serrated as well as high polish stones for it. The stones are very narrow though, which is not a big deal as long as you remember to sharpen one side continuously in a sort of broad v fashion until a burr is raised.
 
I would highly recommend learning freehand sharpening, but not on those two knives! Bench stones, diamond plates, waterstones etc are good for any type of grind (convex, Scandi, V bevel) once you understand what you're trying to accomplish. Get some good sized cheap kitchen knives so you get used to doing larger tools. As you think about what to buy, consider if you're going to be using your cutters outside and if you'll be needing a light, portable method to maintain them in the field. Once you learn freehand, the options explode.
 
Thanks guys. I'm all for freehanding it, but I wasn't sure if that method was possible with micro-bevel edges or if you needed a blade with a full grind/edge like convex or scandi. I know I'm butchering terminology here.. i hate sounding and feeling like a n00b.
 
thaddeussmith said:
Thanks guys. I'm all for freehanding it, but I wasn't sure if that method was possible with micro-bevel edges or if you needed a blade with a full grind/edge like convex or scandi. I know I'm butchering terminology here.. i hate sounding and feeling like a n00b.
Click to expand...

You can certainly microbevel an edge freehand. This simply means that you're finishing off the apex, after you've done all the other grinding and edge finishing, with a few very light passes at an elevated angle. Systems like the Sharpmaker are very good at doing this, but are somewhat limited in other respects. You do not need to finish off an edge with a microbevel.

There is a sticky at he top of the page that goes into good detail on this practice - well worth a read.
 
The method I recommend is to practice, practice, and practice. There is no magic pill that allows a person to sharpen well by hand, it takes patience and practice. You will make some mistakes and that is to be expected. Believe me when I tell you that everyone on this forum that sharpens anything had to start from the bottom and work on their skill, technique, and patience. Everyone is in an absolute blind rush to have atom peeling edges but they refuse to put in any work, don't be that guy.
 
The first step is to read up on the various methods of sharpening, paying especially close attention to:

1) the edge angle and geometry that you plan to use for your particular knife and its particular steel (e.g., 30 degrees inclusive, V edge);

2) how to match your stone angle to the edge angle (reprofiling the edge angle, if necessary);

3) how to properly raise and remove a burr;

4) and how to refine the final edge, with either or both a micro-bevel and stropping.


With that knowledge, you can choose a sharpening system. Freehanding can produce excellent edges, but it requires a lot of practice.

Premium guided systems, such as the Edge Pro and Wicked Edge, are really in a class of their own because with a little practice you can produce perfect edges.

Power systems such as a paper wheel or the new Work Sharp portable grinder are going to be much faster, but you'll want to get your technique down before starting on your good knives because they can ruin a blade quickly.

But all the other systems work if you first know what you're doing.
 
I don't think I'm clearly articulating my needs. I'm not really looking for the fastest way to find a razor's edge, and I certainly understand the concept. When I search for videos on knife sharpening, I seem to find videos predominantly like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lm53mCOQTR8

In those cases, people are using knives where the grind goes all the way to the edge (such as a scandi grind) and so it's just a matter of placing the blade on the stone and tilting it until the edge rests on the stone.

But the two Koster knives look like this, a flat grind with what appears to be a micro-bevel:

muck120102-01.jpg


bushmaster110209-03.jpg


In the past I have just used a little SOG sharpener that suctions onto the counter top with two little opposing grinding stones (a little v shape) that you draw the knife through. I've used it on my other knives and i get a sharp edge that doesn't really last very long and comes out with a lot of burrs. As I've been going through sharpening material, it doesn't seem like I should continue this method with my knives, especially with the Koster's.

So I'm just looking for the best method/tools/whatever to keep the two knives pictured above in a tip-top sharp state. I'll then practice that method on some of my other knives to learn the skill and apply it to my Koster's once I'm confident in my ability. "Best" doesn't have to be expensive or complicated, I'm just struggling to understand where best to start out from the vast amount of information on the internet.

Does that better clarify what I'm looking for?
 
Strigamort said:
Those aren't microbevels. They may have microbevels, but you won't see them very easily.
Click to expand...

aha! very helpful. So what is that edge called? is it just a flat grind with x degree edge? I've read a ton so far, but without some interactive guidance specific to the knives I'm looking at it just seems like gibberish.
 
That's the secondary bevel at the bottom. A micro bevel is done by lifting the blade a few degrees while on the stone. You only want to make those passes once or twice using light pressure. It's micro because you can't see it. It's supposed to offer greater edge stability while minimizing cutting performance loss. Personally I don't use them

Here's a sort of confusing thread to look at. May be confusing but still worth a look.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1109295
 
Actually, it was a very helpful thread. So are bench whetstones still a viable option for maintaining a secondary bevel? This seems like the most basic method for learning your blades and baseline skills, but in all of the videos I've seen they use a knife with a nice thick single bevel which seems to make it easier. I can only imagine stones are suitable for a knife with a secondary bevel .. just curious if I'm complicating the effort by going that route since it would mean a much smaller section of the knife is being rested on the stones. Now that I'm understanding some of the knife terminology I can do a more focused search .. however, don't hesitate to keep posting links or videos to speed up that process. :)

I'm pretty excited to be on the order lists. I got both in the black canvas w/ yellow scales to have as a pair. Both are suitable for my camping and backpacking, but the bushmaster is the only one I can legally EDC here in TX if I choose to do so. Since no deposit is required, I figured I could just sign up for two and set aside some lunch money over the next 6-12 months while I wait for my turn. :) I'm not a huge collector of things, so I don't mind spending a little more on the few items I do have. But with that, i don't want to trash my $200+ knives by picking the wrong maintenance tools/methods.
 
Strigamort said:
That's the secondary bevel at the bottom. A micro bevel is done by lifting the blade a few degrees while on the stone. You only want to make those passes once or twice using light pressure. It's micro because you can't see it. It's supposed to offer greater edge stability while minimizing cutting performance loss. Personally I don't use them

Here's a sort of confusing thread to look at. May be confusing but still worth a look.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1109295
Click to expand...

And to add to this, the bevel that starts above the "K" logo in the top picture is the primary bevel. The knife in the bottom picture looks like a full flat grind, so the primary bevel would start at the top of the spine. You can think of a microbevel as a microscopic tertiary bevel.
 
A bench stone is great. You'll need to match your stone to the steel and edge finish that you want. I'm not sure what your blades will be made from. If they are carbon steel (10xx series) or tool steels (D2, o1) or the like, you'll be fine with a common Silicone Carbide, or Aluminum Oxide stone. These are the most common multi purpose stones. They are found everywhere, although my favorite is the Norton 6" "economy" stone from Home Depot. I think they cost around $6 and I haven't found a better cost/performance deal out there. It has two sides, the fine will leave you with a fairly "toothy" edge that will work perfectly for most things. Opening packages, cutting roap, meat and other fibrous materials etc... If your blades are made using a very wear resistant steel you may want to step up to diamonds. These range from the $10 diamond block from Harbor Freight to the popular DMT plates in various sizes (and priced accordingly).

A secondary bevel is present on the vast majority of knives. Nearly all of mine have (or had) them. I won't get into the various edge grinds and arguable advantages. That's a topic for reams of arguments (which are fun too). I'll say that a secondary can indeed be difficult to keep clean while sharpening. That's why it's imperative to practice, and likely the biggest reason why we buy guided systems like Wicked Edges, and Edge Pros.

Generally, in my opinion, there is usually more work involved than people may expect. That's why you see a lot of people frustrated with not getting their sharpening all the way to the apex. Bright light, a good stone, patience and effort go a long way. A loupe and sharpie help to see what's going on. Raising a burr across the length of the edge is the biggest indicator that you've apexed the edge, but with a finer grit the burr gets smaller and harder to identify.

Okay, now I can see that I'm going to write for the rest of the day if I keep this up... Not to mention that small bites are probably in order. :D

I'll try, going forward, to just answer specific questions. ;)
 
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The two Koster knives are 3V steel, which I understand to be a very robust product. I'm re-reading threads with some new clarity and my eyes aren't glazing over as badly as before, so the trickle of specific information is helping. Thanks.

I see recommendations for Ice Bear Japanese Waterstone kits in various places of the internet. Are these suitable for the 3V steel? If not, what then? They're not cheap.. are they extravagant for extravagance sake, or worth the cost? I don't mind spending money for the right relationship between cost and function.
 
thaddeussmith said:
The two Koster knives are 3V steel, which I understand to be a very robust product. I'm re-reading threads with some new clarity and my eyes aren't glazing over as badly as before, so the trickle of specific information is helping. Thanks.

I see recommendations for Ice Bear Japanese Waterstone kits in various places of the internet. Are these suitable for the 3V steel? If not, what then? They're not cheap.. are they extravagant for extravagance sake, or worth the cost? I don't mind spending money for the right relationship between cost and function.
Click to expand...

From what I understand 3V is tough but not as difficult to sharpen as some other alloys.

Ice Bear are King stones, not a good idea for wear resistant alloys but work very well on carbon and the more ordinary stainless. Once you get into waterstones there are a ton of options and a somewhat longer learning curve. I highly recommend a combination silicon carbide stone from Norton to start out - if you go this route, spend the extra 15 bucks and get a Crystalon stone. This is capable of working pretty much any steel out there and by the time you master the fine side of the stone, you'll be turning out edges that will easily shave arm hair. You'll also have a better idea of what you might like next.

You could also contact Koster and see what they recommend for a starter kit on that steel.
 
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