Insurance questions

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Jan 15, 2007
Messages
310
OK, did a search for this and couldn't find anything on it. As I'm starting to get some (albeit smaller than most) money wrapped up into knives, how do most insurance companies handle knives? Can they be included in with the normal household items or are they handled like my guns on a rider (sp?) policy? Just wondering if anyone has had any problems insuring their knife collection. Have you had to have an expert appraise your knives? I still have a hard time finding values for knives so I can only imagine an insurance company would be in the same boat. Anyone have good or bad experiences with insuring their collection? Mine is only at $3500 give or take but was wondering what most do when it gets into what I imagine must be rather extensive.

Thanks!

Marc
 
Here's what my insurance agent said. They are covered as ordinary household items in the home owner's policy.

I suppose once the collection value exceeds the insurance limit ($300,000 or something like that), then I'd have to buy additional insurance.

You should ask your agent though. Different insurance companies are likely to be different.
-------------------------------

As far as values, I've never had mine professionally appraised. I sort-of in my head keep track of current values, if I see a knife identical to mine sell at a certain price.

I do have complete records of all of my knives though. Brand, model, materials, dates, prices, photos, etc. My "catalogs" are made by printing out a blank form, taking it to Kinkos, and having the form copied and printed into fifty page books. I'd be happy to send you a Word document of the blank form. You could either use as-is or make whatever changes you need.

-Bob
 
Without the befit of current research and from memory only....I believe the knife collection would be covered to the limits of your policy covering household goods which is generally a percent of the total value of the home policy limit, ie.10%, unless you have an additonal provision for "stated value" for which you would pay extra premium. This is part of your home owner's policy. There are other companies out there that would insure just your knives.

Paul
 
Hey Ducks and Bucks, I'm a claims adjuster for an insurance company, and homeowners' insurance is what I do (I know, my forum title says "knifemaker", but I'm talking about by day here).

Anyhow, you've got pretty much the right answer above. However, there are a couple more things to keep in mind.

First. If, God forbid, something happens to your home and your knives are damaged or destroyed, you should make sure you at the very least have an inventory of them. My company doesn't tend to be very hard-nosed about this sort of thing, but we could be. It's well within the terms of the policy.

Your policy says:
2.Your Duties After Loss. In case of a loss to covered property, you must see that the following are done:
a.Give prompt notice to us or our agent;
b.Notify the police in case of loss by theft;
d.Protect the property from further damage.
e.Make reasonable and necessary repairs to protect the property ; and
f.keep and accurate record or repair expenses;
g.Prepare an inventory of damaged personal property showing the quantity, description, actual cash value and amount of loss. Attach all bills, receipts and related documents that justify the figures in the inventory;


If you fail to do any of those things, you've legally got no coverage. You have to hold up your end of the deal, or the insurance co. doens't have to hold up theirs (again, my company is not very tough on these things... other companies are).

So that's one thing. If it ever comes about that you've got to file a claim, make sure you do it right so you don't wind up out of luck. Having an inventory ahead of time could save you a whole lot of hassle.

Another thing to watch out for is this: by default, your homeowner's policy covers you for actual cash value settlement of losses to personal property. What does that mean?

There are two ways to settle a loss. You can pay somebody for the Actual Cash Value of what they lost, or for the Replacement Cost of what they lost. The Replacement Cost (I'm capitalizing on purpose here, to make it clear that these are terms from your insurance contract) is the dollar amount it would take to go buy the item on the open market. If you had a 5-year old 19" Toshiba TV, and it got destroyed, and your policy provided Replacement Cost coverage, you and your adjuster would look up the price for 19" Toshiba TVs, and you'd get that amount of money.

Now, if your policy only has Actual Cash Value coverage (and remember, by default, that's what your homeowner's policy provides. RC coverage is an add-on.)... your policy pays you for what the old item was worth. How do you figure out what the old one as worth? Well, the ISO- Insurance Services Office- puts out a great big chart of the lifespans of EVERYTHING. People, backhoes, drywall, toasters, everything. We'll use the TV example again. If ISO says 19" TVs are good for 15 years, and yours is 5 years old, then it's 33% "used up". It's gone through 1/3 of its average lifespan. It has 2/3 of its lifespan left, therefore its still got 2/3 of its value.

So if your 19" TV cost $100 new, Replacement Cost coverage pays you $100, and Actual Cash Value coverage pays you $66.66.

See why this makes a difference?

And again, remember that Actual Cash Value coverage is the default, and Replacement Cost coverage is an add-on, it costs more.

So there's two things to note, and here's one more. Your homeowners' policy covers the building- and everything permanently attached such as cabinets and carpets- for everything except what's excluded.

It covers your personal property, and this includes knives, for nothing except what's named.

Want to know what's named? Here's the list:
COVERAGE C – PERSONAL PROPERTY
We insure for direct physical loss to the property described in Coverage C caused by a peril listed below unless the loss is excluded in SECTION I – EXCLUSIONS.
1.Fire or lightning.
2.Windstorm or hail.
This peril does not include loss to the property contained in a building caused by rain, snow, sleet, sand or dust unless the direct force of wind or hail damages the building causing an opening in a roof or wall and the rain, snow, sleet, sand or dust enters through this opening.
3.Explosion. {If you're curious, yes, this includes bullets.}
4.Riot or civil commotion.
5.Aircraft, including self-propelled missiles and spacecraft.
6.Vehicles.
7.Smoke
8.Vandalism or malicious mischief.
9.Theft
10.Falling objects. Damage to the falling object itself is not included.
11. Weight of ice, snow or sleet which causes damage to property contained in a building.
12.Accidental discharge or overflow of water or steam from within a plumbing, heating, air conditioning or automatic fire protective sprinkler system or from within a household appliance.
13.Sudden and accidental tearing apart, cracking, burning or bulging of a steam or hot water heating system, an air conditioning or automatic fire protective sprinkler system, or an appliance for heating water.
14.Freezing of a plumbing, heating, air conditioning or automatic fire protective sprinkler system or of a household appliance.
15.Sudden and accidental damage from artificially generated electrical current.
16.Volcanic eruption other than loss caused by earthquake, land shock waves or tremors.


Those 16 perils are the ONLY things that can happen to your knives for which you would have coverage. Now it seems pretty thorough, and it's true, it covers a lot. But there are plenty of things that aren't covered, so keep your eyes open, and don't fall into the trap of thinking that anything that could possibly happen to the collection would be covered by insurance. It's a lot more specifically laid out than that!

Whew, that's the most I've written on BFC on any one topic, probably ever. But I hope it helps, because I'm sure there are plenty of members here who ar ein the same boat. And who reads their insurance policy anyway? :D

Mike
 
One of the reasons I got serious about taking photos was exactly because of this problem the value soon adds up. To put it simply I want to make sure mine never do get stolen.

A lockable display case on wall did not seem like a good idea. No matter how well you have them secured it is advertsing to any theif. I have heard every safe is rated on how long it takes a proffesional safe cracker to break into and that a very good safe has a 5 minute rating???

Make sure any safe is well hidden, my knives are so well hidden even i cant find them ;)
The problem is how can i really appreciate my investment with them all locked away?? Answer, Take good photos of them for display, The theif is welcome to take the framed photo of your knives if he likes it, he can even hang it on his wall at home in a nice frame if he wishes ;)
I have one beside my bed (not a theif a photo)

Go to this link for some info on this: http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=445751&page=3

Insurance may still be a good idea to give you peice of mind.
 
Wow....thanks all. Mike, you must be a lot of fun at a cocktail party :D . I'm not really concerned with theft....My dogs live in the house and would tear anyone that shouldn't be there to pieces. If that doesn't work, my wife shoots pretty good and my kids are getting a lot better. If they make it past them, well, then heck, they've got the knives. I ain't staying around if they get past them. I just had a friend go through a house fire recently and it got me to thinking about insurance.

What I gotta know is how do you guys find the time to work, collect knives and be so dang good at photography? I barely remember if I put my boxers on in the morning and most of you guys are great at a multitude of things.
 
Ducks and Bucks66
Sounds like Fort knox at your house.

Some set em in concrete in ground safe under house, fire doesnt matter then, If I lost all mine dont think I could be bothered searching for them all again on ebay. Yes Insurance is not a bad idea but many collectors consider them irreplaceable.
Kind Regards tim
 
Tim,
Unfortunately, I bought a house out in the country. Not too long after buying a house out in the country, the county decided to build a prison 1.5 miles down the road from me. It hasn't opened yet but the wife wanted me to get a security system. I'd rather teach them to shoot. It's a win-win. I save a bunch of money and she gets to imagine I'm the target ;) . I think you're right though. I couldn't imagine trying to replace some of the collections you guys have. How long have you been seriously collecting knives?

Marc
 
I couldn't imagine trying to replace some of the collections you guys have.
As you're aware it's not simply the value, it the "replacibilty" that is most difficult to overcome after a loss of multiple knives. For instance, of the knives in your collection/accumulation, consider how many are one-of-a-kind customs? How many are out of production? How many are limited editions, final/first production runs, etc.? How many are mint condition vintage?

As an example, when I lived in Arkansas many years ago I had a shoebox stolen that contained 12 or 13 pocketknives. None of them were vintage, none were custom-made, and none were expensive. Just ordinary factory-made brand-name knives. It took 12 or 13 years, an average of one year per knife, to find identical replacements.

So imagine having a collection of 250 knives stolen or lost to a fire...

How long have you been seriously collecting knives?
I've been "Accumulating" knives for almost 30 years, starting with a 34OT Old Timer that my grandfather gave me. I've only been seriously "Collecting" (agressively buying with a focus) since 2004 when Schrade went out of business. I still "Accumulate" on occation, as it's actually more fun and interesting than the competitive and expensive world of Collecting.

-Bob
 
As someone who lost everything during Katrina I can tell you take vidios and pictures of everything in your house then put them on CDs and store them at someones house who doesn't live in your area.It's all about proof and insurance companies are not your friends.For that matter neither is FEMA.Arnold
 
Hello all as a licensed agent in 5 states...I recommend this advice ...TAKE PICTURES OF YOUR STUFF!!!!!!!!!!!

AND WHEN U TAKE PICTURES OF YOUR STUFF KEEP IN MIND THAT NOT EVERY ONE IN THE WORLD IS a KNIFE LOVER!!!

SO WHEN U TAKE THAT PICTURE MAKE SURE YOU TAKE A PICTURE OF:

1: MANUFACTURE NAME
2: PLACE OF ORIGIN
3: SALES RECIEPTS IF THEY ARE TRULY THAT IMPORTANT
4: EXPENSIVE COLLECTABLES..HAVE IT APPRAISED EVERY TWO YEARS

IF YOU HAVE NONE OF THIS U LEAVE IT UP TO THE INSURANCE COMPANY TO DECIDE THE PRICE OF YOUR KNIFE AND BY THE DEFINITION OF THE WORD... A KNIFE IS A KNIFE BIG OR LITTLE.. AND CAN BE COMPARED TO THE LOCAL GROCER OR WALLY WORLD....IN THEIR ESTIMATION....

eg. A Polo purple label shirt collection is 7,500 if it was lost with no denotation of its value....guess what go get another 15 shirts from wallys at 15.00 dollars a piece

OH YEAH PEOPLE LISTEN HOME OWNERS INSURANCE DOES NOT COVER FLOOD DAMAGE A FLOOD INSURANCE POLICY DOES AND CAN ONLY BE ISSUED TO YOU 30 DAYS AFTER YOU APPLY....THIS IS USUALLY CONTROLLED BY THE GOVERNING ACTING STATE and or its designated insurance departments of that state


and do us agents a favor and LISTEN before its too late cant stress that enough... its your livlihood we are insuring

WHEW that felt good... cant tell me how many stories ive heard from people wanting the cheap way out...a cheap policy is just that.............

- Please check with your acting agents of the particulars of your policy ....
my 2 cents of advise are of no legal recourse and encourage you to act within the guidelines of your policy at your own discretion with your own agent...
 
Hi All
These are a cheap very high theft rating safe that will protect from fire as well (with top covered). The reason they are cheaper than other competition for there high rating is that they have a smaller pull out lid for the 6 inch entrance reducing week points like hinges etc and also because whole thing except for the lid is completely submerged in thick heavy concrete, they are a thiefs nightmare.
Rap knives together in rolls of thick foam with tape around them to keep them firm or make stackable 12 x 6 racks to go in safe. This one is only small at about 30cm x 30 cm 12x12 inches, It would still fit plenty of knives in it if it is stacked correctly.
These are not my photos. You may find one on ebay?
Leave lid off for fews days while curing concrete!!


9f94_1.jpg

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I always thought any"collectible" had to be insured with a special rider on your policy. If you ask the ins to cover your knivves under the household stuff then you are lumping your knife collection in with your washing machine and television and there is a limit as to the most they will give you. if your household limit is 90,000 then you have to buy clothing, furniture washer and dryer, living room set,bedrooms kitchens, rugs and flooring stoves ,lamps etc. you would not believe how fast that money will go just to but stuff that you need everyday. and then you will wind up with 4 cents for your collection. i think they have to insured by themselves like antiques and other collectibles and they have special ins for that
 
I always thought any"collectible" had to be insured with a special rider on your policy. If you ask the ins to cover your knivves under the household stuff then you are lumping your knife collection in with your washing machine and television and there is a limit as to the most they will give you. if your household limit is 90,000 then you have to buy clothing, furniture washer and dryer, living room set,bedrooms kitchens, rugs and flooring stoves ,lamps etc. you would not believe how fast that money will go just to but stuff that you need everyday. and then you will wind up with 4 cents for your collection. i think they have to insured by themselves like antiques and other collectibles and they have special ins for that

This is true. Hopefully, when you're sitting down with your agent, you're taking into account the value of the knives when determining that limit (ie $90k in the example above). If you don't, then you'll be running into the policy limit and you're probably going to choose clothes over knives.
Ideally, you've calculated it accurately enough that you've got money for everything you had before, but that's not easy to pull off in real life.

You could get "special insurance" for the collectible knives. The term your insurance agent will use for that is "Schduled Personal Property". But that's really designed more to protect a few very high dollar items, rather than a lot of moderately valuable items.
For example, they're expecteding to receive an application for two $10,000 pairs of earrings, not two hundred $100 knives.

When you sit down to apply for Scheduled Personal Property insurance, it's going to take a mighty long time.

But hey, if you want it protected, you can get it protected. That's really the bottom line.

Mike
 
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