Integral and Bearing Construction in Slip Joints.................

Boggs

Boggs

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Feb 27, 2007
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So that was a question I was asked today regarding a custom makers slipjoint....great question for today's "Traditional Modern Slip Joint" and widely excepted as an element of quality in higher end folders.

I certainly can see the attraction of an integral frame and bolster...seamless and elegant together but is the attraction simply aesthetic, is there a structural integrity, does it show the makers level of competence and do I care or does it simply afford me bragging rights?

And how about the use of a bearing system at the pivot somehow incorporated there or in washers if used.............slick, slick............could it lead to better blade centering and movement, I don't know....

Taking together or separately, could these elements add to Traditional Slip Joints or are they more for the Modern Interpretations ....and by incorporating either am I eliminating the warmth,feel and quirks that I've grown accustom to.
 
Boggs said:
So that was a question I was asked today regarding a custom makers slipjoint....great question for today's "Traditional Modern Slip Joint" and widely excepted as an element of quality in higher end folders.

I certainly can see the attraction of an integral frame and bolster...seamless and elegant together but is the attraction simply aesthetic, is there a structural integrity, does it show the makers level of competence and do I care or does it simply afford me bragging rights?

And how about the use of a bearing system at the pivot somehow incorporated there or in washers if used.............slick, slick............could it lead to better blade centering and movement, I don't know....

Taking together or separately, could these elements add to Traditional Slip Joints or are they more for the Modern Interpretations ....and by incorporating either am I eliminating the warmth,feel and quirks that I've grown accustom to.
Click to expand...

Here's my take on the questions you asked.

Integral:
Yes, it does show competence on the maker's part. However, that is not to say those of us that solder bolsters are any less competent. I don't have a mill, because I can't afford one. A seamless soldered joint takes skill. A wedged joint takes skill. A integral takes skill. All skill, but different types of skill. As far as stronger.....well......probably. But, it's like using a grade 8 bolt where a grade 2 is more than enough. Just because its stronger doesn't mean it needs to be. And I think stronger is a relative term. A single piece of metal is always stronger than a soldered joint, by its very nature. But enough to make a difference in the finished product? Probably not.

As far as bearings and washers......
There a few guys using washers. I've never used them, so I don't know. I think bearings would be pointless, but they might reduce friction. However, since the blade is rubbing on the spring at all times (causing tensions/friction), is the effort needed to use bearings even worth the (possible) added benefit? I don't think so. Many makers do use a bushing, which takes the lateral pressure of the scales and covers off the sides of the blade.
 
I'll throw my two cents into the discussion. I approach this subject with a personal bias towards integrals and bushings.
Each of us has preferences and I "feel" that integral is "stronger", the actual difference is probably very small, but he overall
perception that it is stronger and it is certainly cleaner in it's final appearance makes me gravitate to integrals.
The bearings some say reduces friction, I sure as hell don't know and would never "wear out" one of these knives, but in my
mind it's a finer end result and if I can choose, I choose integrals and bushings!

Great subject dear to my soul...
Jeff
 
Couple of my William Henry's have integral bolsters and frame/liners. It adds to their cost, but they claim it contributes to structural integrity. Makes sense.

I'm very new to Traditionals, but to me, bearings and traditionals is an oxymoron. That said, I suspect bearings are the future of modern knives, especially flippers.
 
Bearings are designed for a free swinging blade. If you put bearings in a slipjoint, it will make zero difference if thspring and tang are finished roughly. Many makers relieve the liners away from th tang, thus making integral washers in effect. Also, how would you adjust tension? You would need screws and bushings for pivots, which I think would make them ugly.

If you're gonna request bearings in a slip joint, might as well get a pocket clip and a thumb stud added. Its no longer a tradional in my book. Cool maybe, but not for my tastes.


-X
 
I like the idea of an integral construction, and ordered that in my last traditional custom. I like the seamless look and knowing there are no weak points:)
As for bearings, I think they would be worthless in a traditional.
So, integral is a strong yes for me, but lets leave the bearings in the flippers. Just my .02
 
Here's a question for you....

Do you think the makers that are doing integral folders do it for strength? Or to hide the seam line? or both?
And if it does make a better knife?
Why doesn't Tony Bose make them that way?
My take - I think it takes more skill to solder the bolsters and hide the seam line, than the skills it takes to mill an integral. :confused:
And it's the same for washers - I think it takes more skill to make a folder with NO washer and get it to work smooth. Than to put a washer in it to get it to work smooth.:confused:

If I got the chance to score a Ken Erickson integral folder (right knife at the right price?)
I sure would not hesitate to snag it.....:)
 
This is a good time to say that variety is the spice of life and in this case the choice of materials and construction.
I am happy to have a variety of alternatives from which to choose.
all very enjoyable...
Jeff
 
jeffsaul said:
This is a good time to say that variety is the spice of life and in this case the choice of materials and construction.
I am happy to have a variety of alternatives from which to choose.
all very enjoyable...
Jeff
Click to expand...

Jeff,

I agree - :thumbup::D

Just to make a slip joint knife and get it to work - well they have more skill than I will ever have......:rolleyes:
 
I would add from my experience it does not necessarily take more skill to solder a bolster. Both are equally difficult, just require know how. Milling integral bolsters takes more time.

My guess (and that's all it is) as to why Tony does bolsters the way he does is because that's the way he has always done it and soldering is plenty strong to last a long time.

As for mill relieved liners vs. washers I don't think you will see any performance difference. And from talking with Enrique and visualizing how I would do it, I don't think using washers is any easier.

I have some bushings so I can test them for myself. Bushings are beneficial for keeping the pin hidden through hard use. I have talked with many other makers who could not feel a difference in the action of the knife. Keep in mind that Reese Bose does not use them. I would think that if they were that good his dad would have been able to talk him into them by now.
 
Jim, good thread topic. I used to be very partial to integral bolsters/liners. I happen to really like tip bolsters and if any bolster would be better as an integral it would be tip bolsters. I own a number of 100+ year old knives that have been thoroughly used and abused with tip bolsters. The bolsters are fully intact even where the rest of the knife is do-do. Leads me to believe that this is a construction method of preference by maker.

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I can honestly say that I've never thought of a slip joint with bearings and my initial reaction is "Why bother?", but it's a big old world with room for everyone. And heck, it could be a great option.
 
99% of the slipjoints I make are mill relieved with integral bolsters. I like to ocassionally do
one with soldered bolsters. It may not be harder to do than milling an integral frame but
getting one to not show the line definitley is. If I were worried about strength there would'nt
be bolsters at all as in a shadow. With modern handle material, micarta, G10, carbon fiber,
any lateral force is more spread out than with bolsters. If a frame is going to fail soldered or milled
its going to happen at the shoulder. We could go to the moon and back with this, for sure the bolsters
are going to protect the handle material. I have no problem with washers or bushings, and if I
thought it would make a better or stronger knife I'd use them. OR I could make liner locks use
washers and bushings, and would'nt have to learn to make springs at all- other than bending TI.
Ken.
 
After reading this thread I get the impression that there maybe a bit of confusion between washers, bearings and bushings when it deals with slipjoints.

Here is a link that show in great detail bushing use in a slipjoint.
http://boseknives.com/pvtbushing/


I believe that washers/bearings as they deal with slipjoints is simply an alternative method to keep the tang from showing scratches. Keith Johnson and Enrique Pena are both using this method in some if not all of their knives. The major benefit as far as my understanding is being able to have a "cleaner" look to the inside of the knife.
 
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Very interesting stuff. Enjoyed looking at the link Ken.

I am reminded of something I once read from Jeff Cooper to the effect that we don't need more rifle cartridges we need better platforms. After reading it I thought to myself "I don't need either, I just need more time to use what I have!"

The same thing kind of holds for these types of improvements. I wish I had the opportunity over the rest of my life to completely wear out 6 or 8 good quality pocket knives hunting, fishing, camping, gardening and doing all the other things I love to do. It would be wonderful to look at a well cared for knife that had been completely used up in a couple years and think "Dang! Wish this one had bearings and shims so it would have lasted longer!"

Wishful thinking. :)

Will
 
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