Integral/Frame Lock vs. Liner Lock

S

Siege Perilous

Joined
Aug 1, 2001
Messages
62
How would you guys compare these two locks, such as the pros and cons of each. The CR Sebenza and William Henry Evolution are two knives that I'm looking at, but my question isn't necessarily limited to them. Which lock would say is better, in terms of strength, reliability, and ease of use?

Thanks :)
 
I would have to say that a frame lock is inherently stonger than a linerlock. You have an integral bar as the locking devise instead of a thin peice of metal.



th.octopuss.gif
"The man in the back has a question."
 
The integral/frame lock is stronger and more reliable. The index finger rests across the lock bar, re-enforcing the lock. The lock bar is much thicker tha the liner giving more lock to blade contact.

Paul
 
I much prefer integral/frame locks. Much more secure.
 
Frame locks are reliable, liner locks are not. How's that for a succinct bottom line? :)

In theory, frame locks are susceptible to the same torquing and spine pressure failures that liner locks are. After all, they rely on the same general principles. However, in many cases, with a frame lock your fingers are wrapped around the lock, reinforcing the lockup. By contrast, with a liner lock, not only are you not helping to reinforce the lockup, but very often the flesh of your fingers can slip down and product extra unlocking forces, making things even worse.

We hear about liner lock failures, in testing and in the field, all the time. With frame locks, we hear about very few failures, and most failures happen when the hand was not wrapped around the lock reinforcing it (in other words, a less-than-natural grip in many cases), or, there was torque applied in such a way that the hand couldn't reinforce the lock.

Bottom line for me: liner locks are acceptable for gentleman's folders. Frame locks are acceptable on a broad range of knives, including hard use folders.

Joe
 
Bottom line for me: liner locks are acceptable for gentleman's folders. Frame locks are acceptable on a broad range of knives, including hard use folders.
Click to expand...

Joe, bottom line for you tends to be advice that many people follow. With that in mind, I would like a little clarification, before I swear off liner locks forever on folders that I may put to hard use :D

Are you saying that liner locks, in general, are only acceptable for gentleman's folders? That there are no specific executions of liner lock design that are worthy of hard use, i.e. that found on the Spyderco Military or Microtech LCC?

Not challenging you, just asking for clarification.

Thanks!
 
I have a few liner locks that are very solid. They gall and tighten the more I press. My Lightfoot predator backup comes to mind. But I don't have the same confidence with every one and even the predator, I don't know how long it will last like that before one day it slips. When I compare my Elishewitz liner lock to his integral lock, for example, the level of confidence in the integral is much much higher, and I think it will last longer. Even better would be a safety like an axis or rolling lock. Perfect would be a Simonich or Crawford Carnivour. But they ain't easy to find.
I agree that liner locks are a little suspect for hard use - if not now, then over time. What the life expectancy is, I dunno, but I bet it's alot less than a framelocker.
 
Originally posted by Starfish


Joe, bottom line for you tends to be advice that many people follow. With that in mind, I would like a little clarification, before I swear off liner locks forever on folders that I may put to hard use :D

Are you saying that liner locks, in general, are only acceptable for gentleman's folders? That there are no specific executions of liner lock design that are worthy of hard use, i.e. that found on the Spyderco Military or Microtech LCC?

Not challenging you, just asking for clarification.

Thanks!
Click to expand...

Starfish, thanks for keeping me honest. Note that while I think I have considerable evidence to back my views, and I will put up a spirited defense of them, I am not claiming to have access to some transcendental Truth that everyone else isn't privy to.

Knee-jerk-wise, I tend to feel that liner locks are unreliable generally, although of course it's a matter of probability. But intellectually, there are liner locks I trust. Of the 30 or 40 liner locks in my collection, there is one that I trust for hard use -- it's one I had the maker hand-tune for me -- so it's not impossible. Some makers and manufacturers are definitely better than others. I've handled a delicate gents folder from Melvin Nikiuschi, whose last name I just completely mangled, and the liner lock on that thing puts the liner locks on most overbuilt tactical folders to shame. I'd buy a hard use liner locking folder from that guy in a second.

Production-wise, I feel Spyderco is one of the better liner lock makers, along with Benchmade. Although saying this always gets me in hot water with Microtech fans, I feel the evidence shows that Microtech's liner locks are at least a notch down, or more likely two or three, from BM and Spyderco. I agree that Microtech's quality is impeccable and unmatched by any production makers except maybe CRK and William Henry, Microtech's material and design choices are superb, and the aesthetics very appealing.

I still feel that there's little reason to take my chances with a liner lock, when so many great lock formats are out there. There are more and more well-done framelocks out there, the rolling lock, the axis lock and a host of variants, the compression lock, plus some very well-done lockbacks. There will be more as time goes on.

So yes, there are liner lock makers that are better than others. I personally don't buy them any more except for gents folders, and I only have one that I'll carry for harder use. Generally speaking, I feel a reasonably-executed frame lock is safer than a well-executed liner lock; liner lock execution has to be impeccable for me to really be happy with it.

Joe
 
I have to agree with Joe. I have several linerlock folders from various makers and they all differ from maker to maker and sometimes among the same model by the same maker. I've seen good solid linerlocks and I've seen sloppy ones, but for me the frame lock is an improvement. I still buy knives with linerlocks, but I make sure I examine them before I buy them. Lately, I've been gravitating towards locking mechanisms like Benchmade's Axis locks and SOG's Arc-locks.


th.octopuss.gif
"the man in the back has a question."
 
I think Joe's basically on the mark as usual. But my opinion is just slightly different. I wouldn't carry a linerlock for "hard use" because for me "hard use" is hacking through some tree branches, brush, etc, to build a fire. and things along those lines. For that I'd always have a large fixed blade. Never would I use a folder for such a thing, no matter how good the lock was.

What I would use a linerlock for is the normal range of general folder use as I conceive of it. For me that's cutting tape, slicing up cardboard boxes, cutting threads off clothing. Occassionally cutting a plastic tie, rubber bands, possibly some rope if it comes down to that, but never anything I would REALLY call "hard use". With a good lock like the axis lock I might dare to use it a little "harder" but it still wouldn't get into the range of hard use. Better to have a solid piece of steel in your hand for the tough jobs than a piece of metal held to two thin slabs of titanium and a textured composite by a tiny screw.

I realize that every once in a while a hard use job comes up when you hadn't planned it, but usually you can anticipate when one might come up. Seriously, I don't plan on driving along and suddenly end up getting lost in a forest somewhere. I don't trust liner locks much, even though my experience with them has been excellent, never have I had one close on me, and all of mine lock up tight with no movement during anything I use them for. All of that said, I don't entirely trust the frame lock either, but I could see how it would be a bit more reliable than a linerlock.

I can't say I would treat a frame lock much different than a linerlock. Again, that's not because of a bad experience. Just that when I look at the lock something like "golly gee, that thing's locked up by little more than magic" crosses through my mind. I appreciate the stronger lockup of the axis, rolling lock, compression lock, back and mid-locks, but I've never used a folder for anything I would need a strong lock for. I know I've wandered a bit from the subject, and I'm starting to sound like I'm contradicting myself so I'll lay it out in one sentence: I don't trust ANY lock for what I call hard use, but I don't think you need anything better than a good linerlock for folder use. Then again, that's just my stupid opinion. :)
 
Thanks for the clarification, Joe.

I have to agree with most here, in that the liner lock is, in theory as well as in practice, less safe than others.

However, and I know this point has been brought out before - how safe is "safe enough"? I believe that Sal Glesser stated in another thread that the liner lock on the Military was rated at 100 lbs/in. I'm too lazy at the moment to calculate what this means in terms of mass and acceleration, but it would appear at first glance that 100 lbs/in (which I assume means that the total blade can sustain up to 400 lbs uniformly along the blade) is pretty darn good.

(I call out the Military specifically only because I knew the numbers for that off the top of my head)

So there's the question - how safe is "safe enough" for any lock? Has anyone measured the magnitude of the forces that are exerted on a lock under "hard use"? What kind of usage might break a liner lock (besides overzealous spine-whacking :D)?
 
Another vote here for the frame lock. The Sebenza is probably the best example of that.

I do have two liner locks that I have total trust in: The MT LCC and the Al Mar SERE 2000. Nothing I have been able to do so far has caused anything remotely resembling failure.

There is a proliferation of new locks out there that just seems to be getting better: Axis, Arc-lock, Rolling lock, etc.

We all benefit from the intense competition to bring out ever better designs.
 
What about wear? How long are my "hard use" liner locks that are now secure going to stay that way? I wonder if they will wear down much sooner than the frame locks, and I suspect they will. Are the makers likely to replace the liners, and at what cost? Inquiring minds...
 
A couple things come to mind here.

First, Apthartos is probably correct that no folder is going to be as strong as a fixed blade. But, few of us live/operate in an environment where we can wander thru our lives wearing a fixed blade in a sheath on our belt everywhere. Some luckily do, but they're a small minority.

I don't know how to access the results -- am not sure that they're fully public -- but Spyderco has apparently tested all the locks on their knives, and has rated them for several categories of use. I think that Sal Glesser is ethical, and who can knock a company that says many of their knives aren't safe for heavy levels of work? When they say a few are, I'm sure they're right. I think that if strong folding knives are used carefully, that most tragedies could well be avoided.

What does safe mean in this discussion? Usually, it means that the blade of a folder won't close on one's fingers, thereby cutting them deeply or amputating one or more. But, that isn't necessarily the case. In particular, the Spyderco Wegner has a nearly inch long ricasso. That knife has one of the thickest production folder blades I've ever seen. The ricasso is the same thickness. If that excellent liner lock should fail, then that ricasso is going to come down on the user's index finger. It might get pinched a bit, but nothing is going to be cut. The lock is so well done that I'm betting few have ever failed in normal usage.

I too have come to believe that frame locks are the safest. They are the simplest of all the locks. The only thing to break is the part of the handle that operates as the locking bar. Sure, I suppose that could happen, but just about as frequently as pigs fly, I'd guess. While the Sebenza and Paragee that I own have locking bars that easily slide out of the way making closure easy, two others, the S-2 and the EDC aren't that easy to close. The EDC is improving, but the S -2 is always a tough job to unlock one-handed. But, am sure that it is the safest of the bunch too.

While some of the early Al Mar SR2Ks apparently had some lock problems, I can't forget that Jeff Randall used his test piece to bash thru a 2" sapling by banging on the butt with a piece of wood. Or that he split saplings by the same method, but by banging on the blade spine.

I don't read the MT forum. But -- and such statements by me always need to be prefaced with the fact I have a terrible memory -- I believe that I am still waiting to read my first complaint that a MT lock has failed. Or a MOD. Or a Strider. Nobody I've seen has been using the name Stubby or No-Thumb Joe that I've seen, because of a lock failure.

WHile I realize that in probably many situtations that external forces could be applied to one's knife blade, I keep remembering that except in reverse grips with the edge out, almost all the forces users apply to their knife blades tend to keep the blade open, not close it.
 
Bugs -- You've somehow missed them. There have been reports of Microtechs failing, sometimes with a bad ending for the fingers involved.

HJK -- You bring up another interesting point regarding liner locks. The reliability of the liner lock is critically dependant on the geometry between the blade tang and liner. As the liner wears, what happens? You guessed it, the geometry changes. I suspect this is one of the main reason that a liner lock that has worked well for a long time can suddenly start failing. This phenomenon has been observed by enough people that I'm convinced it is real.

Joe
 
Originally posted by Starfish

So there's the question - how safe is "safe enough" for any lock? Has anyone measured the magnitude of the forces that are exerted on a lock under "hard use"? What kind of usage might break a liner lock (besides overzealous spine-whacking :D)?
Click to expand...

I think we may be talking about different things. I'm not really worried about a well-done liner lock "breaking", in the sense that some part will actually physically break during hard use. When you ask "how safe is 'safe enough'", you have to keep in mind that a lock can fail without anything actually breaking. Safety is not just about whether or not the lock breaks, it's also about how reliable the lock is -- does it ever unlock itself under conditions that I don't want it to?

The liner lock critically depends on the geometry between the liner and the blade tang for secure lockup. Change that geometry and the liner can slip off. For example, if you were cutting in a binding material and the blade got stuck a bit, the natural reaction is to torque it out a bit. When that happens, the frame flexes, the washers compress, and the flesh of your fingers possibly sink down between the handles to touch the liner. Moreover, as the liner itself wears, it moves further along the blade tang, and that changes the geometry as well. If you take the knife apart and put it back together, will the handle alignment have changed ever so little, and will that change the lock-up geometry a tad? You betcha. It is possible to manufacture a liner lock that will be both strong and reliable, even under these changing conditions. It's just very difficult to do so consistently, time and time again, in either production or custom manufacture.

Joe
 
First, Apthartos is probably correct that no folder is going to be as strong as a fixed blade. But, few of us live/operate in an environment where we can wander thru our lives wearing a fixed blade in a sheath on our belt everywhere. Some luckily do, but they're a small minority.
Click to expand...

I realized that and tried to allow for it. I personally never really "wear" a fixed blade anywhere. I carry a folder with me 99.9% of the time, because I don't really LIKE fixed blades. I do, however, think there's times when they should be used exclusively, and those occassions are generally ones where you CAN carry a fixed blade. The things I call "hard use" and would never use a folder for are things that would come up in hunting, fishing, camping, and obviously you can "wear" a fixed blade on those occassions, or have one in your tackle box, etc. But under those circumstances I would generally carry the blade in a backpack, or something else, never in a sheath. As I've stated before I've never found a sheath that I'm comfortable wearing.
 
Liner Lock: Cons
Frame Lock: Pros

I have been doing my best to avoid liner locks entirely. It is not a question of strength, but of reliability. These things fail. It doesn't matter if the knife is working well today, or has past a spine whack, or even if it's ok tommorrow. Custom and production Knives have done all this and then gone on to fail with the next use. It is not a safe system.

The frame lock is at the other end of the spectrum. The lock is far stronger, and the blocking bar becomes even more secure as you hold the knife; you are squeezing the locking mechanism tighter. About the only negative is that the lock can stick a little after hard use, making it harder to disengage. Not much of a problem.

Nothing is idiot proof. You can break a framelock, but, if you are putting that much stress on your knife you are doing something wrong. The liner lock can fail anytime without warning, its just two thin pieces of metal holding themselves in place through friction. My fingers are worth a little more than that.

N2S
 
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