Intellectual Property - honest question

DustinY

DustinY

Joined
Dec 29, 2016
Messages
754
Hey guys,

I know most people - even in the folder world, don't patent their designs. I purchased a fixed blade from a maker that truly moved me (i'm on his books for another), and it was truly the first knife i wanted to keep forever. It was also the first knife that moved me to pursue making - i thought about it long and hard but this was the straw that broke the camel's back. I looked the knife over a million times and knew that if i could learn some techniques, i could produce something that good, and it was that good.

My question is - is it flattery or a douche move to copy the shape? I know that it seems some people have some signature stuff in the folder world (stuff that is VERY much their own, at least in today's day and age no one does that design QUITE like them) - but if you look to the custom kitchen knife world everyone uses pretty much the same shapes over and over (for good reason, and their each still their own in terms of skills producing the knife, finishing, and materials). Although this carries over into the fixed blade world, it's more of a unique blend of totally someones own, and repeating designs. The hunter, bowie, etc. but people do develop their own niche here, and i'm curious. I think i know the answer - it's to go to the maker and ask how he feels about it (the stuff i produce probably won't be for sell as i'm still learning) but my ultimate goal is to get into the kitchen knife world - the problem with that is grinding large - thin bevels is hard for me - and this edc stuff seems much easier (grinding).

Thoughts?
 
At the very least approach him but I would design your own stuff. The design is a portion of the work and to bypass that portion seems not right. You will feel much better after you develop your own designs and see them improve with time. Even if you approach him he likely won't want to say no but you're kind of putting him in awkward place. Hope this helps. What I would do is start on a design and post it up for critique. Then modify over and over until you are happy.
 
Stang Bladeworks said:
At the very least approach him but I would design your own stuff. The design is a portion of the work and to bypass that portion seems not right. You will feel much better after you develop your own designs and see them improve with time. Even if you approach him he likely won't want to say no but you're kind of putting him in awkward place. Hope this helps. What I would do is start on a design and post it up for critique. Then modify over and over until you are happy.
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This is pretty much how i feel, going to him really forces his to defend his ideas or be a nice guy. I get it, and it sounds like we're thinking along the same lines.
 
you are very early in the game, you will (might) feel differently once you get going and make some more knives.
Meaning you will differently about his knife and design and your knives and designs

It's not a douche move to ask him. Ask him, he will likely say yes, make one for yourself, learn from it. Then you will make other designs, then you will progress.
 
Personally I have only designed 2 knives so far, but each had elements of other knives that I liked. So a particular drop point blade with a handle shape from a second knife that I liked, with an overall arch to the knife from a third knife. All hand drawn by me with my own ideas for length etc. Can you do a folder that "tips your hat" to some aspect of his knife that you like but incorporates other qualities that are your own or pieces of other knives?
 
I'll chime in on a couple things here. since you titled the thread "Intellectual Property" , there is a legal aspect here (though it seems clear that is not what you are really asking). As far as "intellectual property" goes, the only time you cross a legal line is if you **sell** something that is protected by someone else. There are absolutely no restrictions on your making/copying something for your own use. In this case, I do not know of anyone that has either copyrighted or patented a design .... so they dont have any "protections" against someone making/selling their design (patents are **expensive**.....). ok - now that that is out of the way....

I am new to this community, and dont really know the players - but the fact that so many people are out there willing to make "this is how I do it" videos, and the willingness of people here on this forum to give me specific advice on how they do things, gives me the sense that many/most(?) people would be flattered if you told/asked them that you would like to use their designs .... as a learning step towards understanding how to make knives that are truly your own. Make that clear, but give him the "out" and emphasize that if he is not comfortable with that, then you will not go anywhere near his designs (but I doubt he will take you up on that!). This is really just re-saying what Harbeer said - go ahead and ask the person!
 
If it's a straight up copy, then I would say ask permission from the source and also make sure to give credit. If it is inspired by a known design, give credit to who inspired you. Things are usually fine when credit is given where it's due and people treat each other and each other's work with respect.

.........


~Paul
My Youtube Channel
... (Some older vids of some of the older knives I made)
 
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So here's the unique thing, i don't know if this can be changed up to much to be my own - although it's a basic blade and handle shape (i might play around with the blade), at the same time it IS uniquely him. When you see it, you know. I don't want to crush toes - and it wouldn't feel like presenting something original, but i want to do knives in batches. I have a bunch of steel i need to cut so i was looking at getting one design cut out a bunch. This helps not have to setup a tool for only one use, doing it in batches is far easier - and i'll get to practice the same things over and over 15-30 times. So thats my dilemma, also, he has 100k followers, and i know he doesn't check dm's often.
 
tkroenlein said:
I think if there's a voice inside your head questioning whether or not you're making a close enough copy to step on toes, you're probably making a close enough copy to step on toes. The honorable thing to do is get ahold of the maker.
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I mirror this i think.
 
If this is your first attempt at making a knife and one you intend to keep for yourself I say go for it.
No offense, the following applies to all new makers including my self:
Unless you are the one in a billion maker no one will mistake your first knife for that of a seasoned maker with a book of work.

Even mastersmiths make knives patterned after other makers who have come before them. How many times have Loveless style knives been listed for sale here on BF?

IMO the problem is when a knife is made well enough to pass as someone else’s work and no mention of inspiration/design is made. Or worst case actually trying to pass as the work of another. Neither of which will be the case here.
 
Cushing H. said:
I'll chime in on a couple things here. since you titled the thread "Intellectual Property" , In this case, I do not know of anyone that has either copyrighted or patented a design .... so they dont have any "protections" against someone making/selling their design (patents are **expensive**.....). ok - now that that is out of the way....

I am new to this community, and dont really know the players - but the fact that so many people are out there willing to make "this is how I do it" videos, and the willingness of people here on this forum to give me specific advice on how they do things, gives me the sense that many/most(?) people would be flattered if you told/asked them that you would like to use their designs .... as a learning step towards understanding how to make knives that are truly your own. Make that clear, but give him the "out" and emphasize that if he is not comfortable with that, then you will not go anywhere near his designs (but I doubt he will take you up on that!). This is really just re-saying what Harbeer said - go ahead and ask the person!
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Gil Hibben and Jack Crain to name two off the top of my head. There are others. This can be a murky subject, such as the hilarity of the Busse "talon hole." Certain protections expire, some don't apply, blah blah blah.

The main thing is to design your own stuff and not directly copy others, whether they have IP protection or not. "Inspired by" is fine, "direct ripoff" is not. As has been mentioned, there is very little that is new. Hard to make a knife that cuts well without it looking like a lot of past knives. If in doubt, most makers are pretty affable when it comes to asking.

Sam
 
Students and admirers have been creating copies or studies of other artist's works for centuries. There is no shame or guilt in doing so, if the intent is to learn and you are identifying the work as an homage or study (especially if the copied artist is long dead). If the original artist is alive it would be good form to ask the maker if they mind you copying their work. I asked Lin Rhea before attempting to try one of his "X-Rhea" knives. The man is a gentleman and had no problem with that. In a time when just about everything has been tried already, a fresh idea can give a maker a definite edge in the market so if a maker has an issue with people borrowing their ideas you have to respect that. Generally speaking I think it is fine to borrow ideas and break down what others have done in order to grow as a maker yourself. If you are going to show that work publicly, give the original maker credit for the inspiration. Do unto others...etc. If you are going to make works heavily based on the designs of others to offer for sale, you should definitely clear that with the source of the design.
 
I'm pretty new to the knife making game, but it seems like folders are inherently more unique than fixed blades. There's only so much you can do with a fixed blade. I have a hunting knife design that I made, but I hold no illusions about the fact that it's likely very generic, and probably just an amalgamation of every hunting and bushcraft knife that I've seen/like.
 
There is a Really BAD part of the knife world out there called CLONES....These are reproductions made without permission of the Original designers. If you feel strongly about reproducing this particular makers knife then take the time to ask for permission. You will have a clear conscience if it comes out as good or better than the Original.
 
I love the discussion, and agree with everyone here. I genuinely believe in the maker that I’m so keen to his designs, I want people to follow and know his name (most people do, lol). I’ll send him an email, and look for ways to change up the design. I think I’ve pinned down what makes it so amazing (and Nick Wheeler talks about it a lot).


The thing about this knife is it’s made from .150” stock, and it’s just a touch under 8”. What’s shocking or that the brain struggles to understand, is how balanced it is & how light it is. The tang is tapered and I know he hollow grinds out material from the center to make it even MORE light. It’s so well balanced that your mind sits there for multiple minutes trying to process how something can feel so rigid, and be so light. I’ll work on changing the design up, and also reach out to ask for his permission to attempt it - giving him the clear out that I understand if he’d rather his designs be made only by him. I wouldn’t have intentions of selling them, but would do giveaways with completed knives (with all the design respects given, etc etc). I think though that the best thing for me to do, is change it up enough that it’s my own design. That makes it more kosher all around, and then the giveaways would feel more of a piece of me and who I’ll eventually be as a maker - opposed to me trying to reproduce something executed way better.
 
DustinY said:
I love the discussion, and agree with everyone here. I genuinely believe in the maker that I’m so keen to his designs, I want people to follow and know his name (most people do, lol). I’ll send him an email, and look for ways to change up the design. I think I’ve pinned down what makes it so amazing (and Nick Wheeler talks about it a lot).


The thing about this knife is it’s made from .150” stock, and it’s just a touch under 8”. What’s shocking or that the brain struggles to understand, is how balanced it is & how light it is. The tang is tapered and I know he hollow grinds out material from the center to make it even MORE light. It’s so well balanced that your mind sits there for multiple minutes trying to process how something can feel so rigid, and be so light. I’ll work on changing the design up, and also reach out to ask for his permission to attempt it - giving him the clear out that I understand if he’d rather his designs be made only by him. I wouldn’t have intentions of selling them, but would do giveaways with completed knives (with all the design respects given, etc etc). I think though that the best thing for me to do, is change it up enough that it’s my own design. That makes it more kosher all around, and then the giveaways would feel more of a piece of me and who I’ll eventually be as a maker - opposed to me trying to reproduce something executed way better.
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Thats exactly how i felt the first time I picked up a Loveless Big Bear. Keep in mind knives are tools. Every aspect is there for a reason. As you build more and more knives you will develop your own preferences on the details and what level of fit and finish is acceptable. All of the makers work whom you admire and find impressive will influence you and help you create your own style. IMO there is no need to change something just enough so that you can call it your own. Its a tool, make it as best you can and then make it better.
 
I’m continuously impressed with this maker, my god. He responded very quickly and with gentle words, granting me permission and giving me insight that it’s how he started as well. Making tried and true designs and attempting to replicate them - while learning the tools of the trade. He also recommended books for drawing, drawing aids, and pushed me to practice putting my own spin on things. Some people carry themselves in such a way that it makes you develop a fondness that’s very unique, humans are great sometimes, wow. Thanks everyone for your input.
 
Part of the answer on this depends on the design. Is it a Hudson bay pattern? Lovless style? Scagle style? Randal style? Hartsfield, Lum, Bump, Lamey, Fikes, Fogg...etc...
I could keep on going and going. There are makers doing fresh, original design works....that immediately gets copied by other makers....often using the same model name, and without prior permission. I know a maker well, who spends a lot of time on original designs, only to see another maker producing copies without attribution or permission, often within a month or so of design.

In the folding world, there are just as many unique designs. Some are perfectly happy to share patterns, but would like a nod as to design. T.and W. Bose are makers who are very helpful to new slipjoint makers.. and share patterns.
 
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