Interesting bit of news (2)

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For around 70 or so years now it has been accepted that the production of lactic acid is what causes muscle fatigue. This was determined by some experiments with frog legs way back then. It's in all the text books.

Well, maybe that's not true. Some Australian researchers decided to have a closer look at things and discovered something very interesting.

Muscles work by elctrical impulses passing through them. As they work the impulses degrade and lactic acid is produced and fatigue experienced. However, the lactic acid is actually procuced to assist and enhance the electrical impulses and delays the onset of fatigue and is not in fact causing it. There is still more research to be done but it looks like lots of text books are going to have to be rewritten.

An interesting side issue: If this proves to be correct are we going to see athletes injecting themselves with lactic acid to try to delay muscle fatigue?
 
Cool!
Nice to know there are new things to discover. :)

BTW -- for a whole lot of the drugs we take, no one really knows how they work!
 
Hey Gaj - I watched the same compass show last night myself. I did exercise physiology as an undergraduate and that show just blew my mind. It demonstrated to me how an assumption can become fact, which then seeks to gather a whole heap of data to support itself and appear true - when the basic asumption is wrong all along.

In the world of sport, this is actually quite ground breaking and it will revise how many athletes train. Expect to see a few world records in middle distance events tumble sharply in the next few years - just like they times in the longer distance events dropped once everybody started training with heart rate monitors.

I have also noticed a trend - in every aspect of human physical performance- that where we assume there is a mechanical/physiological limit - there is not and in fact it is a nuerological limit - the longer we go on the more we are getting to realise something that I have believed all along - that it is the mind, not the body that is holding us back.
 
For around 70 or so years now it has been accepted that the production of lactic acid is what causes muscle fatigue.

Lactic acid as the cause of muscle fatigue was disproven about twenty years ago.

How do I know?

Simple: my father did the research.
 
Gollnick said:
Lactic acid as the cause of muscle fatigue was disproven about twenty years ago.

How do I know?

Simple: my father did the research.
Better get somebody to work on those text books. :rolleyes:
 
Gollnick said:
Lactic acid as the cause of muscle fatigue was disproven about twenty years ago.

How do I know?

Simple: my father did the research.
How come it was never published? Or, if it was, why was nothing done about it, such as ammending text books and so on?

I'm not saying he didn't do it by any means, I'm just curious why the knowledge does not appear to be out there.
 
How come it was never published?

It certainly was published. There were several papers on the subject. I can look the exact references up, but I'm gonna guess Journal of Applied Physiology and Proceedings of the American College of Sports Medicine at least.

It will be hard for me to determine exactly which papers are the exact ones since the titles are often quite specialized.

Or, if it was, why was nothing done about it, such as ammending text books and so on?

I don't know. But it often takes a long time for discoveries to get from the lab to the line.

It's also true that there's a huge industry of products based on the old lactic acid theory and people who believe it and don't want to change their old ways.

Salt deficiency as a cause of muscle cramps was disproven 40 or so years ago, but you still see athletes taking salt tablets.
 
Not saying its wrong, but why do some of the most outstanding athletes, such as Lance Armstrong the cyclist and Ian Thorpe the (Australian!!!!) swimmer have such low lactic acid production? This is supposed to be one of the reasons they are so great. This research would seem to suggest that low lactic acid would be a handicap.

Cheers, Acolyte.
 
A quick search using the terms "author=Gollnick" and "all fields=lactic acid" turned up 5 hits, earliest 1984, titled "Influence of exercise on the fiber composition of skeletal muscle."
It was published in the journal "Histochemistry".

The paper you are probably thinking about is:
"Exercise intensity, training, diet, and lactate concentration in muscle and blood." published in 1986.

The latest hit, in 1994, lists him in the College of Vet. Med. at Pullman, and the earlier ones don't tell. Was that where he spent his research career?
 
He was first at Univ. Of Mass. at Amherst (I think), but was only there for a couple of years and only published a couple of papers from there.

The vast majority of his career -- and my life until going off to college -- was at Washington State University in Pullman, Washington, first in the Department of Physical Education for Men which briefly became the Department of Physical Education when merged with the Department of Physical Education for Women, but ultimately became The Department of Physical Education, Recreation, Dance, and Leisure Studies. However, dad moved shortly thereafter to the Department of Veterinary and Comparative Anatomy, Pharmacology, and Physiology where he was a professor until his death. (We did spend a year in Sweden.)


By the way, all of his later corespondence was on Department of Physical Education letterhead because he felt it would have been wastefull to throw it all away so he saved it and used it himself thus becoming his own department.
 
Pullman has a long history and good reputation for physiology.

This thread is quite relevant to several others in political---
it shows how difficult it is to go against dogma-
whether in science, religion, or elsewhere.

In addition, in other threads we have discussed academic qualifications.
Look how easy it was to find that information about your dad's work.

That's how we know he was qualified for his job.

Anyway, thanks for sharing the information.
 
Acolyte said:
Not saying its wrong, but why do some of the most outstanding athletes, such as Lance Armstrong the cyclist and Ian Thorpe the (Australian!!!!) swimmer have such low lactic acid production? This is supposed to be one of the reasons they are so great. This research would seem to suggest that low lactic acid would be a handicap.

Cheers, Acolyte.

The idea (as I understand it) is that high levels of lactic acid are present in fatigued muscles - but that's all. This correlation was taken to be cause and effect.

The research is showing that the high level of lactic acid is because it enhances the electrical signal, which is degrading through fatigue. So the mechanism of fatigue is not lactic acid.

My theory on why Lance and Thorpie would have low levels of lactic acid at given effort is there electrical signal is degrading less at that effort level than most mortals.

The exciting aspect to this idea is something that I have suspected all along - that the limit to human physical performance is not in the mechanical/physiological processes of the body,but in the nervous system and the mind.

I was a semi-pro athlete myself and worked with professional athletes for a while and this was something I always thought intuitively to be true- it's nice to see some research beginning to back it up.
 
I went to the gym today to put fifteen more miles on their stationary bike. They have quite a selection of magazines to read while working out. The gym subscribes to some, but most are just brought in my members who are done with them. I happened to pick up the February issue of Muscle and Fitness magazine for my reading enjoyment today. And there I found this article

lacticAcid.jpg


Notice the red, "Quick Tip" box which I've sort of brought to your attention by blurring everything else. Read the last sentence. The lactic acid myth is still going strong today.
 
The exciting aspect to this idea is something that I have suspected all along - that the limit to human physical performance is not in the mechanical/physiological processes of the body,but in the nervous system and the mind.

Well.... I'm not exactly sure my father would have agreed with that. Remember, though, that he was a physiologist.

He was one of the first to show the clear difference between fast- and slow-twitch muscle fibers. He developed the chemical tests still used to identify them. He identified the sub-classes of fiber types. He also did extensive research showing that it is not possible to change a muscle fiber's type. In fact, his research combined with those of several others show that it is not possible to change a fiber's type by diet, training, environment, or drugs. While the human genome hasn't been decoded enough to know for sure, experts in the field today believe that your fast/slow-twitch makeup is genetically defined. This means that there are people who, no matter how they train, diet, medicate themselves, whatever, will never run a marathon. Some of those people might have been Olympic sprinters had they not fixed their goal on the marathon.

Dad also showed that muscle fibers do not split or replicate or otherwise increase in number in response to training. This research I remember well. Tables and tables of graduate slaves... I mean students, of course... hunched for hours and hours over microscopes dissecting muscles to the individual fiber so that they could count the number of fibers exactly. They first established that symetric skeletal muscles have the same number of fibers. Uninjured, your left bicep has the same number of fibers as your right. They did this first in rats, by the way, and later in chickens. (It's since been confirmed in humans too.) Next, they exercised the animals such that they only exercised one side, left or right. They did this to the point of getting a dramatic increase in muscle size and mass. But when they then removed both the left and the right muscle and dissected each to the individual fiber and counted the fibers, what they found was the exact same number of fibers in each side. No new fibers were created as a result of exercise.

Another common myth is that of "microtears." This holds that when you exercise, your muscles are sore because you tore some of the fibers and that the two torn ends will then heal and develope into two new, separate, and functional fibers. Not true. Experimentally disproven.

What this tells us is that the number of fibers in your body is also not something you can change with diet, exercise, or drugs. Again, the theory is that it's genetically-determined.

So, the conclusion of all of this is that your unchangable, genetically-determined body does limit your athletic potential.

For many years, WSU had an outstanding track team in the area of distance running. The stars came from Kenya. And the brightest of them all was Henry Rono. He would come and run on the big treadmill in Dad's lab for hours while reading his textbooks (pre-law as I recall, something quite weighty anyway). The running was absolutely nothing to him. He could study while running. Then, he'd gather up his things and head down for track practice. Dad did biopsies on him and typed his muscles and determined that all of the skeletal muscle in his body was 100% one fiber type, the exact perfect type for distance runners. This was not the result of any diet or training or drugs. He was born this way. He was also a very pleasant man, by the way.
 
Gollnick said:
enough to know for sure, experts in the field today believe that your fast/slow-twitch makeup is genetically defined. This means that there are people who, no matter how they train, diet, medicate themselves, whatever, will never run a marathon. Some of those people might have been Olympic sprinters had they not fixed their goal on the marathon.
I know little if anything about human physiology but I do know a little about equine physiology and exercise. Something I studied at Uni. and gained through experience in traiing endurance horses.

some breeds of horse have fast twitch muscle which makes them great at short fast stuff, (Thoroughbreds), some breeds have slow twitch which is great for distance work and, hence, endurance. (Arabians reign supreme at this).

This would tend, I think, to bolster Gollnicks contention, (or at least his fathers), that muscle type is genetically determined.

No amount of training is going to make a Thoroughbred travel 400 kilometres in less than 30 hours and no amount of training is going to make your average Arabian go as fast as a TB in a short race.

Interbreeding makes for some interesting combinations though!
 
Dad always loved horse. He was a farm kid. And he had a great way with horses. If a horse was totally unruly, he could walk up and, within minutes, have that horse calm and happy. And all that accomplished with a carrot... literally. (All horses live carrots.) One of the reasons for moving to the Veterinary College was to continue work on the horses who are some of the greatest athletes in the world.

Dad had one of the first treadmills in the world that could run a horse at full speed. No horse would do this the first time. All the horses were very suspecious of the treadmill. Some were never able to do it. But many got comforable enough eventually to gallop at full speed on the treadmill which was a site to see. Dad was also the first to measure a horses respiration on a breath-by-breath basis.

This is easy to do in humans. You simply clamp the nose shut so that they have to breath through the mouth and then have them breath through a scuba diving valve thing which allows you to control the inspired air provided on one port and capture the expired air coming out the other. You can get these valves with a little electrical switch built in that indicates if the person is breathing in or out at any moment. And you can use gas flow meters to measure the gas flow rate. This all then hooked up to giant chart recorder that records the concentration of various gasses in the inspired and expired gases, the flow rate, and also the direction of respiration at any moment. Ultimately, we replaced the giant and mechanically unreliable chart recorder with one of the first IBM PC computers (256K of RAM, 5MBytes of Hard Drive, and a 4MHz 8088 processor).

But horses will not tolerate having their nose clamped. They get very violent if you even try. And they certainly won't breath through a scuba mouth piece either. So, we built a large mask of sorts that went entirely over the horses nose and mouth and then used a large fan (we started with a vacuume cleaner and then upgraded to a household furnace) to move a huge volume of gas through the mask so that there would be no stagnant gas in the system. Then, we used very sensitive gas analyzers to measure changes in the incoming verses outgoing gas. The first mask, by the way, was made out of a trash can. This became known as "flow-through breath-by-breath analysis" and it's still commonly used for horses and for humans.

All of this was possible only because of dad's magic touch with the horses. They'd allow him to put this big mask thing over their nose and mouth. They'd follow him onto the treadmill. And then they'd run for him. He had a perfect touch with horses.
 
Gollnick said:
But horses will not tolerate having their nose clamped. They get very violent if you even try. And they certainly won't breath through a scuba mouth piece either. So, we built a large mask of sorts that went entirely over the horses nose and mouth and then used a large fan (we started with a vacuume cleaner and then upgraded to a household furnace) to move a huge volume of gas through the mask so that there would be no stagnant gas in the system. Then, we used very sensitive gas analyzers to measure changes in the incoming verses outgoing gas. The first mask, by the way, was made out of a trash can. This became known as "flow-through breath-by-breath analysis" and it's still commonly used for horses and for humans.
Horses can only breath through their noses. If you had managed to clamp their nose shut you would have had yourself a dead horse. Would have made the breathing experiments a little difficult! :)
 
I also work as a rowing coach and a fitness instructor at the High School level. I do not have a degree, however, and will only offer my observations from my own personal training experiences and of my athletes.

Foremost in a VERY priviledged athlete is the gift of genetics. Some people's tolerance and ability to withstand 'pain' is remarkably higher than others. I see it at the ground level.

Everyone can increase their potential with smart training. The gifted have to 'watch their backs' as an ordinary athlete can and will go beyond themselves if they want it. That's key, as you would all agree.

Whether the Lactic Acid is the chicken or the egg may still be irrellevent. The LA is the primary reason for discomfort...

...perception of discomfort is the intangible that is part of the Mind process. Once again, an athlete who wills himself/herself can simply push through barriers beyond the 'norm'.

LA as a by-product or as an enhancement will still challenge the Mind. When I ask a lot out of an athlete and they deliver, I say they've gone to the 'bottom of the well'. It's a metaphor for going as deep within as you can without failure.

Some athletes go to the bottom and then start digging some more. It's amazing when you see it happen. Witness Lance's final time-trial. :eek:

Good discussion. Thanks for all the input.

Coop
 
There is nothing I can add to this thread except to say that I really enjoyed reading it.
 
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