Interesting Edgework History on Busses

Cobalt

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Dec 23, 1998
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I thought I would post this here as in looking into old threads, I found something about angles and edge thicknesses. Interesting on what happens when the included angle is 17 degrees

As of late I have been doing some chopping with a BM-E (early one bought when they first came out), and my SHBM. Now my BM isn't exactly standard, it is 0.275", no clip to the point, and weighs 660 g. I have also significantly changed the edge profile, so I wasn't looking at the raw performance as much as looking at how they handled, to check out the new grip mods mainly. More on that later.

I started off cutting some fresh wood, mainly pine, that went ok. Later on I switched to scrap lumber as I didn't have as much free time, and had to fit in chopping whenever I got a free half hour or so. This is when the surprises started setting in. I could not keep a working edge on my BM. The edge would constantly roll to a visible degree, you could see it bend or ripple. To be specific these were just barely visible by eye, the steel was 0.005" to 0.010" thick behind the bend.

Now the ripples were easily removed with a little pressure, no chipping as I would have expected. However I was not overly pleased by having to stop chopping every half dozen blocks (I was using mainly 4x4 and 6x6 posts), to fix the edge. Now I knew that the edge was much more acute than standard, but from memory, the last time I checked it, it wasn't that thin that I would expect the the damage to set in this frequently.

The last draw was when I went back to fresh wood and during bucking some spruce I whacked the knife into a knot in the worst possible way. It was kind of "movie-like" as I oculd sort of feel the chop happening in slow motion. I knew it was going to be bad and when it hit the knot I didn't have to check the edge to know it was going to be dented. Sure enough it was rippled to this time about 0.020" thick.

I straightened it with a nail set and a hammer and then adjusted the profile slightly by adding a convex taper to the last one mm or so of edge. I then checked the edge profile to see how much I had thickened it. It spec'ed out at ~11 degrees per side in the last bit of edge. This took me back because that is where I thought it was before I just altered it.

So I check the primary edge profile and it is ~8.5 degrees per side. Ok, now I understand why it was rippling so easy (relative of course, it only got damaged on knots with full heavy swings). This was a flat bevel, no convex taper, on a heavy blade balanced knife. Not bad at all. And of course, no chipping and all damage was easily repaired with the aid of a large hammer.

For those curious, I checked my notes on the ~8.5 degree mod, I did this to check just how much damage would be induce with wood working as I figured that INFI would set a solid benchmark. I was trying to figure out just how low you could go and still be functional. I seems that a sub mm micro-bevel would be enough for all but the worst impacts.

-Cliff



And here is some info on a standard edge, again older stuff:

This blade belongs to Luke Freeouf, who post here as Lurkers. One of the things he was interested in was my impression of its edge durability.

To have a look at the edge durability I first just chopped up a fair amount of wood, (about 1000 chops total, not all on the same day). This was fresh wood, fir, pine and spruce as well as seasoned drift wood, and various scrap lumber. Knots were cut through frequently. The edge was fully sharpened, using waterstones and a CrO loaded strop, several times to enable the detection of even minor rolling. No damage was induced on the edge during any of the chopping.

The blade was then chopped into nails while they rested on a 4x4 pressure treated block. The nails would be driven into the wood from the force of the impacts, and cuts made up to about one quarter of the way through a three and a half inch common nail. The edge was not visibly damaged, just blunted. A 510 g ball pein hammer was then used to pound the knife into the various nails . Because the wood kept collapsing under the nail, the best that could be achieved was a cut about half way through the three and a half inch common nail. These various poundings (a half dozen) put small dents in the edge, from one to two mm wide, and the damaged region was up to 0.015" thick.

Some harder chopping into more nails was performed later. This time on harder wood which was higher up off the floor so I could get more power behind the knife. The cuts into the nails were deeper, the damage induced was more bending, but less extensive than the hammer assisted cuts. I then did some nail chopping on concrete. Since this didn't give like the wood, the blade cut far deeper into the nails. I could get penetration up to half way through the three and a half inch common nail. I then used a four and a half pound beach rock to pound the knife through the nails. The larger nails took one to two hits to be cut completely through. The damage from this was less than the hammer pounding, and the concrete tended to just mash the edge down a little in the impact areas, just blunting.

I then chopped into the head of the hammer. The knife made large cuts into the head, about one mm deep, and up to one cm long. This did no visible damage to the knife, just blunted it. I then found a piece of a concrete block that I had chopped up earlier and whacked that into little bits. These were hits heavy enough to break the concrete apart and send sparks flying. The rock contacts tended to mash the edge down, and you could see abrasion lines in the edge were the rocks had cut into the steel. A lot of impaction had taken place, but no direct fracturing. I then stabbed the tip into the pieces a half a dozen times breaking them up into smaller bits, some tip impaction, but nothing significant.

The attached picture was taken at this time.

Since the concrete didn't do any major damage I chopped into the beach rock a half a dozen times. This induced more impaction than the concrete, no surprise, it is a lot harder. I was hitting the rock hard enough to send it flying feet across the floor and producing visible sparks. The edge was impacted up to 0.035" across, the blade thickness was a little less than this behind the impacted region, about 0.025"-0.030". Again no fracture, you could clearly see the squashed steel. I then stabbed the tip into the rock, sending sparks flying and the rock shooting across the floor again. I did this a half a dozen times and it impacted the tip about one mm.

I then held the knife out at arms length and examined it for damage. You could tell that the regions that had been whacked into the beach rock were a little impacted, but overall it didn't look that heavily used. I took a few shots, and could not tell from the pictures that it had changed significantly from before. Cheap camera though, no ability to do close ups. So I take the blade and put it at a forty five degree angle and then give the edge a whack with the hammer. Success. This bends a piece of the edge enough that the ductility is exceeded and it tears off. This removed a piece of the edge about three mm long and the blade was 0.030" thick behind the damaged region. This damage was visible at arms length.

How was the cutting ability effected? After the concrete chopping the blade still had the ability to slice cardboard, chop wood, and slice various cords in the regions of heaviest damage. Though you could tell of course it was seriously blunted. After I whacked it into the beach rock there was no fine cutting ability left in those impact areas. You could still chop wood, but you were crushing it a lot, and the performance was seriously degraded. Of course there were lots of sharp areas left on the blade. Time to sharpen the blade on a small belt sander (1x30"), would be a couple of minutes, just a few passes per side would eliminate 90% of the damage, sharpening by hand, it would take less than half an hour.

The edge on the BM-E was the standard Busse asymettric edge, wider on one edge than on the other (0.038 x 0.058 -> 18.1, 0.048 x 0.089 -> 15.1).

-Cliff
 
I think Cliff is going to have a hard time responding to you as he seems to be banned. However, he has his own forums that you can post this in if you wish to talk about his posts.
 
Did he ask for a response from Cliff? Did I miss that? and Why shouldnt he be allowed to quote that info?
 
As much as everyone hates Cliff Stamp you have to admit he did some interesting tests after you find them and figure them out.
 
Thanks for the good read Cobalt, alway interesting to see what narrower edges do in different steels.
 
As much as everyone hates Cliff Stamp you have to admit he did some interesting tests after you find them and figure them out.

He's still doing some interesting tests, and everyone doesn't hate him.
 
I think Cliff is going to have a hard time responding to you as he seems to be banned. However, he has his own forums that you can post this in if you wish to talk about his posts.

ROTFLMFAO:rolleyes:

maybe you should read my post a little bit better. I did not ask for cliffs response, I just quoted his testing.

And if I wish to talk about his posts I will, as they were very informative to anyone with an open mind:rolleyes:
 
ROTFLMFAO:rolleyes:

maybe you should read my post a little bit better. I did not ask for cliffs response, I just quoted his testing.

And if I wish to talk about his posts I will, as they were very informative to anyone with an open mind:rolleyes:

And, as Cobalt well knows, my mind is so open ... you can hear the wind whistling through my ears! :D

Thanks for the excellent info, sir. :thumbup:
 
Yeah right, why would anyone want to discuss a post with the guy who actually made them. What was I thinking. Then again I don't really understand why someone would repost a banned members posts out of the blue unless they are trying to start some kind of cross forum argument.
 
Yeah right, why would anyone want to discuss a post with the guy who actually made them. What was I thinking. Then again I don't really understand why someone would repost a banned members posts out of the blue unless they are trying to start some kind of cross forum argument.
Cross forum argument...with whom? :confused:

The topic on hand is about thin edge angles on a large blade. Please cite examples from the references above where the OP is looking for a personal response from the quoted individual.

Hope that foot is tasty...:foot:
 
Yeah right, why would anyone want to discuss a post with the guy who actually made them. What was I thinking. Then again I don't really understand why someone would repost a banned members posts out of the blue unless they are trying to start some kind of cross forum argument.

the post is about edge degradation based on angle.
why can't you look at the results of a test and try to analyze what happened to that steel as it got thinner. I found it very interesting and thought others would as well. You have many positive postings in the past, why do you have to murk that up with negative postings like this?

add something positive from your experiences or analyze what is happening here. The info is there regardless of who did the test, it is still valid info.
 
Cobalt, it's cuz when db sees "cliff stamp" it's like a shark smelling blood in the water, it's not his fault, it's just instinct ;)
 
I found it very interesting and thought others would as well. You have many positive postings in the past, why do you have to murk that up with negative postings like this?

add something positive from your experiences or analyze what is happening here.
Good points. I didn't want to start an arguement. Yoda believe it or not I don't hate Cliff, nore am I even happy he was banned. Maybe I do smell blood when he is involved I guess I should work on that.
 
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