Interesting Imperial Old Timer

[ea42]

Here's one that I'm sure a few of you noticed, it seems to be a prototype (now THIS is a prototype!) of an Imperial Old Timer. It's etched "For Cover Color Only Per A.M.B." and the tang is dated 2/12/64 (I THINK that's a six). The handles seem to have had some kind of meltdown somewhere along the line, at least on the mark side. Measures 3 1/4" long closed. The shield is a true deep stamped finished shield. The etch, though it looks like pen in the photo, is actually quite deeply cut.

So what do you think, has anyone heard or seen anything regarding what was to be a new model?

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Eric

 

[DaveT63]

I have no answers for you, but I do like it. Nice knife!

 

[thawk]

Eric:

If that proto you got there from hey-wired is delrin handled, I would bet it was patterned off of this knife, which is a 1965 or so Imperial razor blade example. Same grooved bolsters. Very nice knives. I have a couple of these and one jack.

The delrin seem to be dyed differently, but I'll bet it is thicker than normal. Right? It is on a 55 frame with the same blade configuration.

What do you think?

 

[Codger_64]

Here's one that I'm sure a few of you noticed, it seems to be a prototype (now THIS is a prototype!) of an Imperial Old Timer. It's etched "For Cover Color Only Per R.M.B." and the tang is dated 2/12/64 (I THINK that's a six). The handles seem to have had some kind of meltdown somewhere along the line, at least on the mark side. Measures 3 1/4" long closed. The shield is a true deep stamped finished shield. The etch, though it looks like pen in the photo, is actually quite deeply cut.

So what do you think, has anyone heard or seen anything regarding what was to be a new model?

Eric

I think the etch says it all. For Cover Color ONLY per A.M.B. (Albert M. Baer). It was a cover color sample.

They were really goofing around with dyes and dye processes on the early Staglon, trying to come up with the best combinations of color, contrasts and durability. Look at a variety of early 897UH and you will see what I mean about the variations. Some are really dramatic with yellow and red highlights.

The shield is neat, but I wouldn't read too much into it. It was likely just a scrap concept shield from the sample room drawer that fit the mold's inleting. It would be neat to find completed knives or advertising showing that they had, at some time, intentions of producing Imperial Old Timers like they did Ulster Old Timers. That the sample room even played with such a shield stamp is curious. Doing "knife dreaming", we could speculate that this was their intention before they decided to name that series Uncle Henry!

Likewise the covers are splay and sink shots, rejects from the early molding process. The zones of the mold likely were not properly heated and cooled. It takes several shots and fiddling with the controls to achieve a perfect, reproduceable shot.

As to the etch itself, I have A.B.Hourin's engineering notebook where he recorded the formula for making and using the marking etch. H2SO4 diluted (Sulfuric Acid).

Having said all this... NEAT FIND! It is a true relic of the manufacturing process development, and very unique!

Michael:thumbup:

 

[Todd A]

Very neat knife.:thumbup: I like it.

It would be neat to find completed knives or advertising showing that they had, at some time, intentions of producing Imperial Old Timers like they did Ulster Old Timers.
Michael:thumbup:

Yes it would. I'd love to know if my Imperial bladed 58OT is "real" or just a lunch box knife.

 

[ea42]

Thanks Codger! That certainly seems to make things clearer. I'm puzzled by the shield as well. They'd have had to make a die to stamp it out that well, and to go through that much trouble, something must have gone at least a bit farther than the drawing board. The knives do seem to be identical thawk, I wonder if they had planned to liven that darker delrin up a bit, but bailed on the idea? Thanks again for the info guys!

Eric

 

[Rusty1]

Reeled this one in the end of last week, Imperial tang stamp 58OT configuration.

Russell

 

[Codger_64]

Gaaaaa! Quit it guys! Next thing you know, someone will come up with a pattern number and matching display board for these things!

Have I shown you my Landers Frairy & Clark Old Timer yet? Lately?

Ok, so here's what we'll do. Pack 'em all up and ship 'em to me. I'll research them and give you guys the results. Free. Or at a substantial discount.

Michael

 

[thawk]

Reeled this one in the end of last week, Imperial tang stamp 58OT configuration.
Russell

I hooked one of those too.

Are these the ones they shipped with the Prince Albert tins? It is interesting to note this tin's knives do not have OLD TIMER shields on the Scout or the 58OT.

This tin is property of Charles Smith. It is on inadvertent loan.

 

[Todd A]

Maybe I should buff the blade etch off mine so it'll look like Rusty's and thawk's?

 

[waynorth]

Great Scott! Where'd you get THAT one Todd???

 

[Rusty1]

Maybe I should buff the blade etch off mine so it'll look like Rusty's and thawk's?

That looks fine the way it is Todd! I do like the shape of the blade on the left, It is somewhat unique.

Russell

 

[Rusty1]

I hooked one of those too.

Are these the ones they shipped with the Prince Albert tins? It is interesting to note this tin's knives do not have OLD TIMER shields on the Scout or the 58OT.

This tin is property of Charles Smith. It is on inadvertent loan.

I would think they must be the ones thawk, has anyone checked out an Imperial scout?

Russell

 

[Todd A]

Great Scott! Where'd you get THAT one Todd???

Antique Mall.......along with a couple 70-80's Case,Robeson,Boker,Camillus,Schatt & Morgan, and a couple more Schrades.:thumbup:

Same guy had a wierd Parker-Edwards bladed Uncle Henry too.Its mine now.

Now to find one like Rusty's and thawk's. And a Imperial PA tin.

 

[thawk]

Antique Mall.......along with a couple 70-80's Case,Robeson,Boker,Camillus,Schatt & Morgan, and a couple more Schrades.:thumbup:

Same guy had a wierd Parker-Edwards bladed Uncle Henry too.Its mine now.

Now to find one like Rusty's and thawk's. And a Imperial PA tin.

Todd: The DE's are worth finding too. At least the Delrin handled imperials. Most of the Imperial DE knives are are shell, but these ones are sweet. Your blade etch is on the correct frame.

 

[orvet]

I agree with thawk; the Imperial Delrin DE series are nice knives & pretty solid especially when compared to the shell handled knives.
I have several, but have not seen that Folding Hunter.....Nice one thawk! :thumbup:

I am not at home now where I can check, but a thought occurs to me: (rare & random I know) but I am wondering if Schrade made these? I will have to check when I get home & see if they are made with the Swinden Key. If they are Swinden construction then Schrade had to have made them, since they were the only factory that had Swinden machinery.
Hummm....... I love a good knife mystery!

Dale

 

[Codger_64]

Dale, as you know, some OT and UH knives do show up occasionally without the Swinden construction. I remember hearing that the difficulty of repair caused Buck to move production of it's 300 series knives over to Camillus. And IIRC, Camillus did make a number of OT and UH knives for Schrade. Did Imperial pre-1984? Dunno. We do know that Schrade bought components from Imperial before they were absorbed.

 

[orvet]

Quite right Michael, but the knives Camillus made did not have the Swinden construction to them, even though they were a model which would have been Swinden construction had they been made in the Schrade plant.

IIRC, I did post pics of a 61OT here a couple years ago that was made without the Swinden key. Later I got the Camillus S-card for the 61s from Tom Williams (CAMCO) that confirmed that Camillus did make some 61OTs for Schrade. Tom and others from Camillus have confirmed that Camillus did not have the Swinden machinery.

At my request LT asked Dave Swinden about the Swinden Key Machinery and specifically which companies had the machinery capable of producing knives with the Swinden Key. Dave told him that the machinery was very complex and quite expensive and Schrade was the only company who ever used it.

I have copies of many of the S-cards from Camillus documenting their production of Old Timer and Uncle Henry knives. Camillus made a suprisingly large number of knives for Schrade over the years. Many of the knives they made did not require the Swinden Key such as the LB series, but to my suprise they made a lot of the Old Timers & Uncle Henrys. I am out of town for Thanksgiving so I can't reference my S-cards, but some of the models I recall seeing were; 61OT, 8OT & 34OT. If I am not mistaken I think Camillus even made some 897UH, but I would have to check that to be sure.


A couple years ago I was talking with someone (it was Joe Houser, IIRC) from Buck about the knives Schrade made for them. They had a nice display and noted in the display was the 2 or 3 patterns that Schrade made of Buck. The deal breaker for Buck was the fact that Schrade would not forgo the Swinden construction and make the knives for Buck with the pin-through-bolster construction instead. They were pleased with the quality of the knives, but the Buck repairman had trouble repairing the Swinden knives. Schrade refused to change the construction and Buck moved the production of those knives to Camillus.

Y'all have a great Thanksgiving,
Dale

PS-Please pardon my spelling. I am at my daughters house for the holiday & can't find any spell checker on her computer.

 

[ea42]

A+ for spelling Dale!! Looks good from here! Great bunch of posts guys, and some very mysterious, and beautiful knives:thumbup::thumbup:

Have a great Thanksgiving everyone!

Eric

 

[Todd A]

Todd: The DE's are worth finding too. At least the Delrin handled imperials. Most of the Imperial DE knives are are shell, but these ones are sweet. Your blade etch is on the correct frame.

Good advice....found one I liked.:thumbup: