Interesting new Ontario?

averageguy

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Saw this picture at Randall's Adventure & Training.

ontariortak.jpg
;)
 
OK!!!! Got my attention! Now when,where,and how much?
 
Cool! If Ontario starts putting out a few of Newt Livesay's designs they & he will make tonna bucks! Not that Newt's own work is expensive, however, it's already a great bargain . . . .
 
I wonder if Newt will get any credit, or cash, from Jeff or Ontario for using his design. It didn't work out that way when Ontario started using Newt's Sniper design to make thier "Warthog." I can't post pictures, but if you look at the Warthog on Ontario's site and then look at the Sniper on Newt's site, you will see what I mean.
I hate to point any fingers but it irks me to see somebody take food off of somebody else's table unfairly.
Some folks formerly associated with B******** knives, or other makers who have had similar experiences, might agree. Just one man's opinion. If I am wrong about sharing profit/credit, I will be entirely happy to say so and apologise.
 
fudo, Ka-Bar is the company that makes the Warthog, not Ontario. I agree that it is a rip-off of Newt's design though. I'm pretty sure that he'll get credit though; Ontario makes the Bill Bagwell bowies and they gave him lots of recognition for the design. That does look a lot different than most of Ontario's other tactical designs, I really like it. The handle is the weak point of most Ontario's in my opinion, this one looks quite comfortable though.
 
I believe it comes with a 10" 1095 blade that is light and lively compared to the original and will have a micarta handle. This one is a must have for me. No false edge so it should use good as a draw knife and will chop like a maniac.
 
Roadrunner-you are right-I stand corrected about the Warthog. Thanks
 
Didn't Jeff Randal design the knife (RTAK)?
If so wouldn't he be free to have it produced wherever?
I don't know for sure, just thinking out loud ;)
 
Before this story get out of hand let me say something about the RTAK development. Jeff Randall had ordered one of my knives known as the Recon Combat Machete (RCM) to use on a trip to the Amazon jungle in Peru back in early 1999. After some period of time he called me again, and said that he had designed a knife, and wanted to know if I was interested in making the knife. I said I would look at it, and to send the knife drawing to me, and I would take a look at it.

Basically from phone conversations about the project what I understood of the verbal agreement was that the knife was mine to do with as I pleased, and that Jeff could get any made he wanted at a very reduced price. Not only would this collaboration benefit me by having a new knife in my selection to sell, but also it would benefit Jeff Randall, and promote his endeavors in the travel and tour business.

When the drawing got here from Jeff I called him and we discussed the knife design and I told him that I could make the knife. Upon closer examination of the drawing, and after laying it out on steel I noticed that the handle design that Jeff had sent did not “fit” our equipment.

Now let me tell you what I mean by not fitting our equipment. Most people when they design knife do not understand the manufacturing end of the process. This is in evidence by some of the knife drawings we get form people both solicited and non solicited. Most of our equipment for grinding, finishing, and producing knives is on specialty machinery with certain “INDUSTRY STANDARD” parts such as certain size rubber contact wheels, platens, jigs, etc. If you are doing a custom knife you might be able to cut a single knife or two by hand one at a time and have it looks like Mickey Mouse’s face, putting your fingers in his eyes as the handle, and have his teeth be the cutting edge. BUT when doing production work or even benchmade work as we do here certain standards have to be adhered too.

With this in mind what I did was to take the drawing for the RTAK knife as it was named, and modify the over all design on the handle to fit the “standard” production equipment we use. I informed Jeff that I had to change the handle design slightly to meet these criteria, and he saw no problems in that. After all he understands the problems of production, etc. I made the first couple of these knives and sent Jeff a copy to play with. The very first knife made or the prototype RTAK is in my collection and is dated 9.8.1999.

So who invented the RTAK knife? Well Jeff Randall did the drawing and concept design work. When it got to me I did the tweaking of the critical handle manufacture, applied my over all finish, and the signature three pin handle work. So if you want to get technical, and look at this in a legal content, it could be viewed as a compilation of both Randall and Myself.

Now am I going to get any money out of this if the knife sells like hot cakes..........NO! I would doubt it, and have not considered the notion at all before these questions were asked above.

Have I asked Jeff if he is going to consider given me credit on any aspect of this knife.......NO! An most likely will not.

Would I ask him for credit on design work, promotion, etc when the production knife is made, sold or advertised? Most likely not. Jeff understands that where credit is due it should be given, and rightfully should be, like in photographic work, writings, art, and other endeavors, etc.

Is this a big deal..... NO!

Newt Livesay
maker
 
Thanx Newt!
Nuthin like getting it straight from the source :)
-Ebbtide
"El amigo de Newt"
 
If you are considering buying the Ontario version, I would strongly encourage you to pay any additional amount (and small wait time, sometimes) in order to get a Livesay RTAK. Newt is a custom knife maker, and his "benchmade" work, like the RTAK, Air Assault, Woo-EX,NRGS-EX, etc., show the detail of a custom knife maker. The spines are nicely rounded, improving comfort and strength (by reducing stress risers), the fit and finish is top notch, especially the micarta handles. Newt Livesay makes the most ergonomic micarta handles I have ever felt.
It can not be disputed that the heat treatment is one of, if not the, most important aspect of a knife's performance. Newt Livesay is a master at treating 1095 high carbon steel (as well as D2). I have owned several Livesay blades, all were tough as nails. They have been used hard, and I would stake my life on their performance.

In addition to receiving a much higher quality product, you will be supporting a small, family owned buisness. If you call the Wicked Knife Co. you will likely speak to Newt or Joda. They have always been super helpful, and it is incredible, in this day and age of voicemail and phonetrees, to be able to speak to the man that will be making your knife.

Take care and stay sharp,
Chad
 
Hmmmmmmm....Looks like I'll be adding an RTAK to the list containing an Air Assault and US Marshall on it right now. Newt is the MAN! You can't go wrong with on of his knives!

Hank:cool:
 
Here are some reviews by forum members of WKC products, every review I have read indicates nothing but high quality work, at a great price, from Newt Livesay, far from what you would ever get from a mass stamp 'em and ship knife manufacturer. I have owned and used many Ontario products, some such as the USGI machete are good products for the price, but none compare to the quality and performance of a Livesay. I have had the pleasure of speaking to Mr. Livesay about some of his designs, the man knows knives and steel as well as anyone. Newt is an outdoorsman, an adventurer, and a knife knut, like us. He learned much of his craft under Bob Dozier, which speaks volumes.....



I know that Jeff Randall has a solid handle on knife performance, that is clear in his writings, his real life adventures and his designs, all show a propensity towards simple efficiency, the RTAK (Livesay), the Laser Strike (from Mike Fuller at TOPS), and the new RAT SUK (from Greco Knives). IF you want one of Jeff's excellent designs I highly recommend buying froma custom maker such as Newt Livesay, the product will be better, and you will have a knife that you can really count on when the chips are down.

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90715&highlight=livesay

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90105&highlight=livesay

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90165&highlight=livesay

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=90228&highlight=livesay

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89620&highlight=livesay

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89588&highlight=livesay

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89551&highlight=livesay

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89247&highlight=livesay

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=89036&highlight=livesay

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88910&highlight=livesay

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88804&highlight=livesay

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88784&highlight=livesay

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88766&highlight=livesay

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88710&highlight=livesay

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88658&highlight=livesay

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88455&highlight=livesay

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88421&highlight=livesay
 
I carried an RTAK for 18 months in a Marine Corps Infantry Battalion. From the Caribbean to the jungle in Okinawa, to the desert then to Mount Fuji, Japan it was the hardest working piece of gear in our Company.

The RTAK can back me up anytime, anywhere. It is a great piece of gear.

-Stan
 
I'll withhold judgement on the Ontario RTAK blade until I've had a chance to handle it. I've found that their knives for the most part are unpretentious user blades at commensurately low prices that afford just about anyone entry into the knife world.

Will the upcoming Ontario RTAK replace the Newt Livesay original version I've been lucky enough to own for a few years now?? Lets just say the answer is a resounding, "No way!" ;) I used it while clearing a property for sale and it's got some nicks, dings & scratches on the blade to show for that job well done. Newt's handle shape remained hotspot-free and comfortable through hours of work. Quality workmanship shows throughout that blade. I think Newt's price for the RTAK is very reasonable considering the performance you get out of the knife. There are times when the higher price you pay for a custom blade is incredibly cheap compared to the anguish you experience and jury-rigging you perform to compensate for buying a cheaper knife at the outset. This is especially true in survival blades, which the RTAK is.

Newt does a fine job on 1095 heat treat. His handle & blade shape designs tickle my fancy every time I pick up any of the several WKC knives I own. I find him to be a fine knifemaker selling good user blades at reasonable prices. And he is one of the most "stand up" guys I know. I'm honored to have some of his wares in my collection. 'Nuf said.

Greg
 
I decided to let this run a while before responding. First of all the RTAK is named that for one reason: RTAK stands for Randall's Training and Adventure Knife. The original design was mine as Newt stated. I used an RCM he had down in the jungles of Peru but wanted something a little different. I drew up the drawing of what I wanted, sent Newt a copy and as he stated he called me back and informed me the handle would have to be changed to fit the way he manufactures. We changed it, tweaked it, and ended up with the RTAK.

BTW, the RCM I used was 2 inches longer than the RTAK, plus the RCM's handle was straight and we added a 5 degree offset to the RTAK for more power. The handle grip configuration on the RCM is different than the RTAK. The full flat grind, width of the blade, and handle materials are the same. The RTAK is hardly the same design as the RCM. If anything it's closer to a Busse design than the RCM.

Time rocked on and the RTAK became popular. We started looking for a production source to keep up with demand. When we looked around we were firm that the RTAK had to remain as it was with a few slight improvements. One of these, coincidentally, is a change of the handle, slightly back to more of it's orginal shape from the original drawing.

We have been working with the staff of Ontario for the past few months on this project. They have been top notch all the way in doing the RTAK as we wanted. They have sent several protos out, we would mark them up and send them back. Finally we have a proto that is exactly what we wanted. Once this finally gets released you're going to be very impressed with the quality, fit, comfort, finish, and yes, heat treat.

This will probably be a limited distribution model. We already have one major gear retailer ready to put it in their catalog and store. I'm sure there will be others. We are going to leave a lot of the business details up to Ontario. If they choose to make this design part of their regular line then they are free to do so. They are also free to choose what dealers can stock them.

Now, to answer your questions about "profits." I'm sure Ontario's reps read this board so I can't lie about this, and this post is my word just as I told Ontario. We have told Ontario directly that we wanted no (meaning zero) profits from this design if they choose to make it part of the Ontario family. The same goes for the dealers who stock this blade. Our reward will be having a great blade available to the many folks who want it, and having our name attached to a great design produced by a great production company. We will also sell the Ontario RTAK from our site, but there will be no price wars with stocking dealers. This is the ONLY thing that Jeff Randall or Randall's Adventure & Training is profiting on. I make my living doing telecom work.

As far as custom models, Newt will continue to make them as long as he wants. He makes a great product at a good price. However Ontario's RTAK will be very high quality. In due time everyone will be able to see this about the Ontario RTAK. We would not put our name on it if we felt Ontario was going to fall short on quality.

As for the status of the Ontario RTAK, they are working on getting protos ready for SHOT. Hopefully they will be ready then, but if they're not then I am willing to wait. This project is going to happen in due time. I told Ontario that I was in no hurry especially with the increase of military knives going out right now. I'm sure their production facilities are running pretty hard.

Thanks,

Jeff Randall

edit: after re-reading through these posts I thought I should make it clear that no one is taking food off of anyone's table. If you will take a look at our site, we have halted selling the RTAK, BUT we still list Newt as a supplier and include his email address driectly from the RTAK page. This information will STAY there even when we get Ontario RTAKs in stock. From what Newt tells me he has plenty of knives and work going on in his shop, as it should be for a good maker. So it's beyond me how food is being removed off someone's table when it's my design anyway. Oh well.
 
After reading Jeff Randall's post, I had to go back and read the entire thread again to understand his last comment. It was in reference to taking food off peoples table.

I found the response that I think Jeff was referring to, and I do not think that FUDO was talking about the RTAK taking food off my plate. Now I might be wrong, but from what I gathered it was in response to the WARTHOG. The WARTHOG argument or at least my opinions on it have been passed on to the personnel KA-BAR at the SOF Convention and in phone calls. The WOO rip off that is being made in Big China or Little China has also been addressed by me to the company and their associates. I am not politically correct when I response to these people, as a Factory Rep for a Korean importer found out when he came to see my shop and buy samples of my neck knives, and KYDEX products.

Now back to the RTAK knife! By Ontario making the RTAK it WILL IN NO WAY TAKE A CRUMB OFF MY TABLE. Anyone who will buy one will or would most likely not buy a higher priced, and in my opinion higher quality knife from me anyway.

Now before anyone gets their panties in a wad, I am not saying that the ONTARIO RTAK is not a quality piece because I have not seen, handled, tested or even talked to anyone that has seen one or used it. I am assuming that Jeff has seen the knife from what he posted, and I know Jeff Randall quite well, consider him a friend, and respect him, but that does not mean we talk daily, weekly, or monthly about any thing. The last time I saw or talked to him I think was in September of 2001 when he stopped for about 15 minutes to say hello, and we did not talk about was knives.

What I am making an opinion on is their quality of knife that they are producing now, and the niche that they have carved out of the post Viet Nam World knife market. It is my opinion they will not meet the quality of the custom/benchmade knives (RTAK) that I produce here in my shop. That doesn't mean that they are not going to make a good knife, and I am not ragging ONTARIO or anyone else here about quality, but just stating my opinion. Hell I buy Chinese machetes for the farmer around here to cut Russian Thistle for "Three Dollars" ($3.00) that are excellent knives. They will out preform or hold their edge better than most American factory production machetes any day of the week, and cut rings around the "Tie-wanie-bees, and Packy crap." They have one problem. The handles SUCK.

So is the Ontario RTAK going to be a good knife. I have no idea? I will say however if Jeff has any thing to say about the finished products quality then the Ontario knife (RTAK) will be a good knife, or they want make it.

Will it make me apply for food aid? Not likely.

Newt Livesay
maker
 
I'm waiting for an RTAK from Mr. Livesay right now. Mr. Livesays knives are one of the few real good values in custom/benchmade knives. Ontario knives are the definitive best value in production knives. Under $40.00 for most of their lineup - that's from an American company with many years of knifemaking. If only they would use the grippier Kraton material that Cold Steel uses I would buy several. The new "Taskforce" could be a real winner - and a competent challenger for the new Becker and Bush Ranger if they would do away with the serrations and incorporate a grippier handle. I haven't stopped purchasing nice production knives and I look forward to purchasing this Ontario when it becomes available.
 
Newt, I'll mail you some of my food stamps if worst comes to worst :D

Seriously folks, Newt and I have no problems. I am still a firm believer in Newt and his knives. Everyone here has mentioned they are a real bargain for what you get and I'm no exception to this belief, but I don't take well to implications I'm taking money or food from someone's table, especially when someone doesn't even know the facts before opening their mouth.

The ONLY reason we searched out a production company was to keep up with demand. Newt has had his plate full for some time and we just needed larger quanities of knives for stock and to keep up with customers orders. Newt will even tell you that my last RTAK order got strung out because of various problems. I've been in the manufacturing business so I know the problems that can crop up. Regardless of that, it's difficult to explain to three customers that you have promised a blade to on three different dates, that he has to wait yet again. We finally got those orders shipped and noted on the RTAK site that we could not take anymore orders until we worked out a better way to keep stock. I wasn't going through promising a date and not being able to ship again. At the same time we had a dealer wanting to pick up the RTAK as a stock piece, but they were worried about being able to keep up with demand from a benchmade shop. The whole Ontario RTAK arose from that. It's that simple. Am I blaming Newt? No, but what was I to do once the knife gained popularity and a dealer wanted to stock it. Would all of you rather Newt drop other orders and only produce RTAKs? I don't think so and it would be unfair to everyone concerned if he did. Like he stated he's a benchmade shop and sometimes it takes a little longer to get product. I understand that very well.

Now back to the Ontario RTAK. Before anyone goes to wondering about quality, put your hands on one first. I know it's as good of quality knife as Newt is making. There's no question in my mind about that after handling and using the protos. Like Newt said, I wouldn't attach my name to it if it wasn't. We required that when we started the project and Ontario has been superior at making it happen. Next thing, although I don't know what production costs are and what the retail price is going to be, I'm guessing it's not going to be too much different from the current price. I could be wrong. Understand something, this is not going to be a balls to the wall production knife, thus the price of manufacture and the features we require are going to make it probably a little more expesive than if it were a high production piece. More than likely this is going to be a limited production run for several dealers.

Bottom line, we support anyone wishing to buy an RTAK from anyone they want. Newt's link and email information for benchmade RTAKs will remain on our site even after we get the Ontario model up there. No matter which the customer orders, they're going to get a great design and a well made knife or it will not be on our site. Period.

Jeff
 
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