Interesting video about swords. (Missing link added) ooops.

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Storm W

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Feb 19, 2019
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This guy comes to some conclusions that are new to me. What do you guys think?
 
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Doesn't anyone have any thoughts? I was surprised to hear that wootz blades are inferior to bloom metal blades from Europe. Is there any counter argument?
 
I watched it and enjoyed it but I don't feel qualified to comment further:D

Ilya is a phenomenal smith and made quite convincing arguments.

Maybe we could get Larrin Larrin or @DevinT to comment?
 
I watched about half of it this morning. I always thought Katanas were closer to 1% carbon, but I guess it makes sense with the carbon loss. I also found it interesting that the impurities came out of the steel, rather than just being smaller, and more evenly distributed. I can’t remember if it was mentioned, but one of the reasons Japanese steel was superior was that the ore had vanadium in it.

Wootz is a cool thing in itself, but I never bought into the superior thing.
 
I’ve heard people claim that the folding process leads to a reduction in impurities but I’ve never seen any evidence. I would like to see the sources.
 
If we're going by chemical composition of just the steels themselves then I can see how a katana would be more pure than damascus, but he also seems to imply that it has very little to no slag inclusions according to his demonstration with the playdoh. I'm fairly sure that if someone were to look at a japanese sword they would find plenty of inclusions while a crucible steel would be almost free of it.
Other than that most everything else he says makes sense to me.
 
Larrin said:
I’ve heard people claim that the folding process leads to a reduction in impurities but I’ve never seen any evidence. I would like to see the sources.
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He explains it starting at about the 12 minute mark, showing the process with clay and gravel. How well that translates metallurgically, I don’t know.
 
Willie71 said:
He explains it starting at about the 12 minute mark, showing the process with clay and gravel. How well that translates metallurgically, I don’t know.
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Yes I watched it. The clay demonstration is not as convincing as research.
 
I have heard that wootz blades were not heat treated. It seems strange that they would perform as well as heat treated blades even if they had less impurities.
 
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He claims that +Ulfberht+ swords weren't made from crucible steel. When every other piece of information on the subject says they were.
 
john april said:
according to the book 'the art of the japanese sword' by yoshihara, folding the steel also adjusts the carbon content. you lose .2% with each fold. when it comes out of the tatara, it has too high of a carbon content to make a hamon. https://books.google.com/books?id=URDQAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT105&lpg=PT105&dq=folded+tamahagane+to+remove+impurities+?&source=bl&ots=OOCDmmMz1A&sig=ACfU3U2aL62059Yc3_g71Jq2yPK4eMIxZw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwip2cLcqqDnAhXICjQIHd2YAOAQ6AEwCXoECAoQAQ#v=onepage&q=folded tamahagane to remove impurities ?&f=false
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I wonder how much carbon is lost when knifemaker make damascus ..........?
 
Regarding +Ulfberht+ swords - https://www.tf.uni-kiel.de/matwis/amat/iss/index.html - Section 11.4.3.
Summary: they were made from a variety of methods.
"The top-notch Ulfberht swords were made from (Indian) crucible steel and not from local bloomery steel."
You can play the 'no true Scotsman' fallacy out and say that the 'real' +Ulfberht+ swords were made from (method of choice), but that's just a line in the sand.

Katanas are addressed in 11.6.4.
Too much to summarize, but my take is: Methods changed over time. Carbon lost during folding. Slag still included.

The author is a material scientist by trade, so I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, even though his expertise is in the realm of silicon for processors and such.

Wootz addressed in 11.5.3.
"Nothing very special or very good about wootz blades."
 
I do have a question. Seems like he is saying bloomery steel is MUCH better than crucible steel because the crucible steel has much higher levels of sulfur and phosphorus than does the bloomery steel. He's saying bloomery steel is better because it's been been worked and folded many times to get the bad stuff out (slag, etc) making it more "pure". What if the crucible steel were worked the same way, would that not get rid of the sulfur and phosphorus to make it a better steel?

All that is based on the idea that folding and working the steel does in fact remove impurities, which I don't have a clue.
 
FunkCoaster said:
Katanas are addressed in 11.6.4.
Too much to summarize, but my take is: Methods changed over time. Carbon lost during folding. Slag still included.

The author is a material scientist by trade, so I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt, even though his expertise is in the realm of silicon for processors and such.
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Föll knows plenty about steel. He does have a good image in there of slag in a Japanese sword. He also says that the low Phorphous and Sulfur in Japanese sword was due to the low content of those elements in the iron sand that is used. The low P and S content seemed to be the main argument in the Youtube video for folding being effective in reducing impurities. The low P and S content in the original sand and the presence of slag in a finished blade seems to mean that the folding lead to a reduction in impurities is false.
 
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