Interrupted Quenching

Joined
Mar 29, 2007
Messages
5,846
Okay, time to break the threads up a bit, right?

The interrupted quenching is quite interesting to me. I've semi-wittingly done it a few times with good results. I'm *quite* sure I do not adequately understand what the steel is doing, though.

I thought I'd ask before I try, but would this allow for blade straightening in the same manner as described for marquenching? It seems like it should.

I specifically tried this out on the last batch of 15N20 blades and the testing is going well. Plenty hard, plenty tough.

What is the effect of differential tempering with this method?

I'm also curious- given that I'm stuck with my oils and not building a 400 degree salt setup, how it affects other steels.
 
Any oil hardening or water hardening steel can be done in a timed to interrupted quench. It all works because contrary to what we have mostly come to believe hardening is not a continuous thing from 1475F to room temp. The secret to hardening steel is to not make pearlite, if the blade is austenitic and cannot make pearlite it has to make something else; it has three other options on the way down to room temperature- upper bainite, lower bainite and martensite. I will not go into bainite since I find it boring, silly and irrelevant to this conversation.

Pearlite forms at around 1000F in the quench so the main condition to meat in a successful quench is to beat the time required to make pearlite in this range, and every steel has a slightly different time requirement. IF however you manage to beat this time you the worst is over and you are on your way to hardening your blade as the blade will be austenite that has no business hanging around at these lower temperatures. At a point somewhere from 400F to 550F (depending on the steel) Martensite will begin to rapidly form, but unlike other phases martensite is unaffected by time; stop the cooling and hold it for a second or hold it for a day no more martensite will form until cooling resumes, but by slowing down the cooling you can control the rate of its formation.

Martensite stresses the bejeebees out of the steel and can lead to distortion and cracking if formed quickly with added stresses of cooling added. Add to this that there are two different forms that it takes and the one it takes in higher carbon steel is very self destructive and brittle in its behavior if allowed to form uncontrolled. For all of these reasons there are significant benefits in cooling much more slowly from 500F to room temperature, and this is why the guys who make quench oils design it to cool very fast at first and then slow down later on.

Armed with all of this knowledge one can see that if they quench a piece of steel in order to super cool it fast enough to avoid pearlite the can then wait until just before martensite begins to form and then dispense with the unnecessary super cooling the rest of the way. As long as we keep in mind that cooling should be continuous we can play around with rates of cooling. So we quench to get around the pearlite nose and then we wait to just above Ms (martensite start) and then stop the super-cooling to allow the martensite to form in slower air cooling.
 
Kevin,

Can a pause or reversal in the quench (such as a snap temper) create problems with retained austenite in D2 and stainless? I know we've discussed this before, but I'm thick as hell. I know stainless ain't your thing, but if you or anyone else could shed more light on this, I'm all ears.
 
The snap temper [300F ] is used to give minimal temper to relieve initial quenching stresses before it goes into cryo. If a temper of 350F or higher is used, that stabilizes some of the retained austenite preventing further transformation to martensite.
Normal temper tempers martensite and transforms RA to untempered martensite .That untempered martensite [brittle] must be tempered ,thus the second temper.
The more complex steels are double tempered [and sometimes triple !] to minimize and stabilize RA since we don't want to have it transform in use.We can never remove all RA so what is left must be stable.
Remember that the amount of RA is dependent on the alloy and the most significant factor is the austenitizing temperature !! Higher temperatures can considerably increase RA. This is why it's so important to have precise temperature and time control when hardening complex steels !
 
Those answers pretty well say it all.
My only addition would be that (With simple steels) , once the Ms has been reached, the rate of cooling can be at air cooling rates and will not affect the final outcome.You are dealing in hours , not seconds anymore. The problem is knowing that you are below the Ms ( or you may get Lower Bainite). A good quality laser pyrometer can be very useful here. Quenching into salts at a hold temperature just slightly below the Ms will allow you all the time you need to prepare to avoid the stresses that kill many blades ( and to straighten any twist/warp that formed in the first two or three seconds of the blades quench).
Stacy
 
Stacy, I hope you realize I'm going to be picking your brain about this interrupted quench thing next weekend.... The more I read, the more I need to read!
 
The ideal way to do this is with martempering (I like to call it marquenching) which uses special quenchants designed to hold temperatures around Ms (400F+) this cools the blade to exactly the desired temperature and then hold it here while the temperature of the blade equalizes throughout before removing and allowing the cooling to continue at a slower pace in air.

However martempering requires proper equipment ($$$) and mediums designed to do it correctly, and it just does not work well with shallow hardening steels (1075, 1080, 1084, 1095, W1, W2, etc…) due to the inability of a 400F+ medium to extract the heat fast enough to avoid pearlite. Thus the topic of this thread- interrupted or timed quenching.

Problem: You have a blade made of 1095 and wish to get some of the benefits of martempering, but your steel will not respond to low temp salts even if you could afford the setup.

Solution: Quench your blade into oil like you normally would but remove it from the oil before just before it forms martensite and allow it to air cool. The catch is that you really need to get as close to Ms as you can without going too far below it.

If you interrupt way too hot you could form upper bainite which plain sucks for almost anything, or at just a bit too hot you could make a little lower bainite, which will not be the martensite you are shooting for. In this cooling all the phases you could make other than martensite are, in part, diffusion dependant, which means time to make them increases exponentially with the lowering of temperature. With 1095 at 800F you have around 3.5 seconds before you start losing austenite to another phase if cooling is stopped. At 600F you have around a minute and forty seconds to avoid making anything else when holding. At 450F you have around 10 minutes to avoid making lower bainite after all cooling ahs stopped. But at 425F martensite will instantly begin to form.

So if you shoot for a temperature around 430F and then pull the blade out of the quenchant things should work out well. But how the heck do you know if you got near this temperature? You could go with the inferred thermometer trick that has been mentioned or you could use some convenient indicators in the oil. When all the hissing and rolling subsides in the oil you count a second or two and pull out the blade. Most oils have a vapor point right around 400F so you observe the oil coated blade. If it is lightly coated with oil and faint wisps of vapor come off of it you are probably in the neighborhood. I it bursts into flame you were WAY too hot, if the blade is dry and smoking you are too hot and if the oils is covering the blade with no vapor at all you may be too cool. But you can also use the magnet, and this time it will be even more accurate than at the high heat. Above Ms the blade will be austenite which is non magnetic still, as martensite begins to form the magnet will gain more and more power over it.

With 1095 at around 315F you will have 50% martensite formed, at 235F you will have around 90%. This means that if you see a kink or bend that you don’t want at 300F or better you can easily straighten it because half the blade could still be soft austenite. It also means that as much as 50% of your martensite will exist at temperatures capable of giving a quick snap temper to help stabilize things.
 
I've said it before, and I'll say it again....I LOVE this website!!!! Great explanations guys! And a little article with 1000X images of different phases of steel in a little-read magazine named Blade or some-such silliness has really helped bring things together. Enjoyed the article, Kevin.

Thanks again, guys!

--nathan
 
okay, good so far. Now if we're doing an interrupted quench and need to straighten, how? I can pop a blade in the big vise and straighten it, or put it on an anvil, or use a press instead of the vise with the polished jaw insterts I use for this right before normalizing. Do I heat the jaws up? I'd think so. I generally give them a bit of heat when I''m doing the forge work anyway.

The explanation of martensite formation is excellent, really helps me understand the process that's going on.

I'm going to have to play with the exit temperature. a magnet makes sense, but could be a bit iffy to apply in the heat of the moment. My personal bent would be to learn the right look in the oil on the blade, but learning means using the IR or the magnet.
 
While the blade is still a mostly austenite, it is really pretty soft. My understanding is that you can use gloved hands to straighten the blade right out of the quench at around 430*. Just have to be fast because some steels can harden up pretty quick once Ms begins.

--nathan
 
i just learned allot. thought i had a good idea what this was about, but i was wrong. i owe just about everything i know about knife making to this web site. thank you to everyone.
-Lou
 
Here is what I usually do:

Before quench I set a 3# lead faced dead blow hammer next to the anvil. I set the vise jaw to be open just a tad more than the blade thickness. I put a turning fork in the hardie hole just in case there is a big warp. I put on heavy welders gloves and use a good strong pair of tongs to pull the blade from the oven/forge and quench the blade. After I feel all vibration stop (about 3-4 seconds), I pull it out quickly. If it bursts into flame ( approx. 800F),I stick it back in the oil for a few more seconds. If it smokes like heck (approx. 600F), I give it a quick lookover and stick it back in the oil.If it looked straight, I leave it there.If it was badly warped/twisted, I pull it out after about 3 seconds ( It should be wet and smoking ,but not look like it is about to burst into flames,approx. 350-400F), wipe it off, and slap it on the anvil. I hammer it to shape as quickly as possible. Don't be a wuss here, hit the thing fast and as hard as needed, it is very movable at this point.I then stick it in the opened vise jaws and twist out any twists. One quick check and back into the oil to cool all the way down to below 200F. The whole straightening process takes only a few seconds when it is a minor warp.

The points I'm shooting for are:
Fully austentitic - approx. 100F above the critical point
Upper Bainite - about 800F - don't stop here for more than a second
Lower Bainite - about 600F - a short lookover is OK here.
Just above Ms - about 400F - The steel is cooling as you wipe it off and get it on the anvil/vise to straighten it. It should just be at the Ms ( about 90% austenite) when you straighten the warps. It will still be about 50% austenite as you take care of the twists.It will still be above Mf when you stick it back into the oil to finish cooling.

Done quickly and planned out in advance ( I do a dry run before the actual quench to make sure everything is set up right where I need it), the blade will end up fully martensitic and straight.

Stacy
 
I put the blade tang in a vice with the tip pointing up at me so I can eyeball it and gently guide it with leather gloved hands. Since I take my blades to 600X finish before the heat treat you will understand why I don't use any metal objects on it in straightening. If you interrupt properly before Ms the blade is VERY soft as it is all austenite, I have left the impression of my gloved fingers in very thin edges while working a twist. As martensite begins to form you will notice increasing resitance and springyness, there is apoint where you will wnat to stop messing aroudn with it. Hammering with a soft hammer will be alright above Ms but there is risks as the martensite is forming as the interface between the two phases is not very tough or strong and can give some issues with impact or heavy deformation.

Remember the idea is to slow the cooling not to stop it so don't sweat affecting it with cold tools (except that you could create more distortion by uneven martensite formation caused by the cold), but I like gentle gloved hands and a section of pine 2X6 to lay it on and really tweek things if they are being particularly ornery.

As has been mentioned some steels set quicker thatn others, I never waste any time with 1095 as it is done before I can do anything with it, while I have reagularly worked L6 rapiers and such for over 8 minutes. All this makes it sounds like every one of the blades warp but in fact this technique will reduce warpage due tot he more even cooling in air, but Mr. Murphy and his law is at work at all times.
 
Okay, I just did 2. one was a testing piece of 1084 to look at the oil smoking and do file tests. The other is a blade, currently in the oven tempering down now.

Seems to have worked very well :D


When I think about preheating, especially on the vise, I'm thinking about shooting for 300-350 degrees, just to slow down the extra cooling from the steel. You're thinking swords, I'm thinking 10 inches OAL. at 3/32 or 1/8, that doesn't have much heat mass
 
I've had way over a 100% success rate with interrupted quenching on blades up to about 15 inches from shallow and deep hardening steels, I'm guessing at around 300 degrees. It's too hot to hold with bare hands, but gloves work fine. I only use it for minor warps that are quick and easy to straighten, but rarely have any real serious warping anyway.
 
Last edited:
I feel like I owe you two a beer.

Over 100%? :)

Scott.

If you just want to use it to straighten minor warps in knife blades,... it's really easy Scott. :)

Just quench it in oil until it's below Ms, and then straighten it before it gets too springy. You can check it with a file to see if there is any hardness or check it with a magnet like Kevin said to see if it's below Ms. I'm just repeating now, but you have less time with the shallow hardening steels, and have to be quick about it.
 
...You're thinking swords, I'm thinking 10 inches OAL. at 3/32 or 1/8, that doesn't have much heat mass

No I am thinking knives, only the tang should go into the vice. If you interrupted high enough a vice will be way too much overkill in straightening any kinks, as I said a gentle nudge is all that is required on a 4" hunter or a 3' sword. If these are your first attempts, trust me, I have done this few more times than you;).
 
Kevin and Stacy, your wealth of knowledge, and willingness to help us fledgling bladesmiths is really helping the community. You seem to have no secrets either! Well, maybe there's one, I noticed that Kevin didn't touch on "packing" like I wanted him to, after all, he is the leader of the pack! :p
Thanks guys (again);)
 
Back
Top