Interupted quench question

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Nov 29, 2006
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Yesterday,I was doing some test blades to determin a time range for an interupted quench. Each blade had a huge temperature difference from edge to spine. Should I go with spine temperature? I would think this would radiate heat to the edge and stabilize,then cool evenly. Around 400 deg. at the spine is well under 300 at the edge. Or do I need to stay above 400 degrees at the edge to produce "happy martinsite" regardless of residual heat from the rest of the blade? I know marquench tanks would eliminate this but I have to work with what I have. As I progress,so will my equipment.
 
At 400F I assume you are referring to tempering the blade. If that is the step you are asking about,then the answer is ....The Edge. The edge is what you are tempering. You can over temper the spine to the point of unhardening it with little overall damage, but an under tempered edge will chip or crack.
 
Stacy; what I'm refering to is an interupted quench, removing the blade from the quenching oil at 400 degrees to refine the martinsite structure. Not tempering, heat treat quench.
 
I'm no expert, but Stacey is saying 400 degrees is tempering teperature. With quenching at non-magnetic you are way above that. I think you a bit confused between heat treating and tempering.
 
If you visit thread titled "screwy idea for tempering",you will read about interupted quench that I'm refering to. Thanks.
 
Get some kind of oil with a high flash point (most synthetic motor oils. Use a deep electric skillit and set the tempeture to what you want and preheat it while bringing your blade up to critical. Have the lid for the skillit handy in case of a flash filre. Drop the blade in the preheated oil.

Leon Pugh
 
Deweyknives, it looks like I may have introduced an alien word into this forum's lexicon (don't blame me I didn't invent the term) since the folks trying to help seem to not quite get your meaning.

Once again, I strongly suggest that folks don't try to get creative with techniques until they have a full grasp of what is happening and why. It seems to be the nature of all bladesmiths to want to always attempt to build a better mousetrap, with the premise that if a little bit is good than a whole lot must be great, while reality normally shows that this is very flawed logic.
Thus I often see attempts to slow the cooling much more than is beneficial or interrupts that are much higher that desired.

The idea is to interrupt as near Ms (around 400F) as possible without dipping to far below and defeating the purpose, or too high above and allowing undesirable precipitates forming or having the auto tempering effect get away from you. The reason that interrupted quenching is a little more touch and go than all out marquenching is because if one is not careful it may be possible to form substantial amounts of martensite in the edge while the spine is still at a temperature that you would not want to temper at. Stopping the cooling action of the quench could then allow the thermal mass of the spine to bleed down into the martensitic edge and over soften it. As an example of what I am talking about- have you even watched a blacksmith quench and temper a chisel all in one operation? The quench just he cutting edge and leave the shaft hot then pull it out quickly and shine up the edge to watch the tempering colors bleed down from above and then requench at the moment the proper color touches the edge.

The time in the oil will vary by a second or two with every oil, for the one I use most it is around 7 seconds, depending upon the agitation rate (don't forget to move that blade and agitate), since most oils have a vapor point around 400F if you get it about right the blade should have a light coating of oil that is producing light wisps of vapor, but not dry and smoking, and not dripping and cold.
 
Thank you Kevin. That's what I was looking for. 400 degrees [thereabouts] at the edge leaves a lot af heat in the spine and I was worried about softening the edge. As this sounded like a reasonable alternative to proper quench set-up,it seems it's "by chance". I guess as soon as I finish my forge burner set-up, I'll do some expermenting on a more controlable and safe procedure.[had a garage fire in '98,aint goin there again!!!!!!!].Many thanks for your time!!

Randy,Deweyknives
 
Of course eveybody needs to do their own experimenting, but to achieve the slightly smoking blade, not too wet/not too dry scenario, I am quenching at 1525 with a fully ground blade into a verticle quench tank of Tex A at 150 degrees. My quench time to achieve that approximate temp is 5 1/2 seconds.
I start with "0 - 1001 - 1002 - 1003 - etc and pull out slightly after 1005". The blade is about half wet, not completely dry, slightly smoking, etc. If it immediately goes dry, it's too hot. I just do a quick dip back in for about 1 second to cool it off a little more and pull it back out!
Now, today, I'm going to do a little experimenting with some different steel and Tough Quench. About all I can do is use the same formula and see what happens at the same time.
 
Thanks Karl. I was testing a 7.5" bowie style blade, .260 at the spine down to .10 at the edge. In about 6 seconds, the edge was down around 260 but near 420 at the spine [thickest part as it has a lot of distal taper]. May have gone too far to do any good. After cooling to room temp,I tempered @ 220 for 1 hr. and into the freezer. It's in the oven now for 2 hr @ 380. Will do this twice. My only test options are file,etch,edge flex and cut so improvements need to be fair to be noticable but they are noticable.I'll know more when I start cuttin'. [sure could use some of Kevin's equipment,IF I knew how to use it!!]
 
Funny story, but true. After years of working with other oils that didn’t have the same timing characteristics of fast initial quench and slow lower temperature extraction rate that a really good quench oil will have, I had gotten used to a particular count. The first I used one of my current oils I interrupted at the time I was used to and immediately grabbed it with gloved hands. The gloves started smoking and I let go of it much faster than I grabbed it. All the old oils I played with just cooled at a steady rate. These new oils were designed to cool to below 800F very fast and then slow down a bit to take things to finish more gently, as is ideal for a well designed quench oil. I was used to the one rate and got a tough lesson. Even though the new oils were faster I had to adjust my count to interrupt it at a lower temperature. This also goes to show that a proper quench oil will also simulate the effects of martempering or timed quenching, but to a much lesser degree than interrupting.
 
... My only test options are file,etch,edge flex and cut so improvements need to be fair to be noticable but they are noticable.I'll know more when I start cuttin'. [sure could use some of Kevin's equipment,IF I knew how to use it!!]

My equipment is not necessary for reasonable people who do not have my obsessive hang-ups. You can get a lot out of very simple testing tools if you know how to use them, but more importantly understand what it is they can measure and what their limitations are. Also, of course, be certain what it is that you are measuring even means anything for a knife.

Files are great as they test the steel in ways that hard objects will in use, however they cannot detect certain things. They can tell you that the OVERALL hardness is greater than a file but they cannot indicate grain size, in fact larger grain will actually obtain higher hardness with less effort. Files can be fooled very easily by fine pearlite for much the same reason they can be fooled by carbides. Imagine the hardened steel as a pile of long broken glass shards on the microscopic level, now fill in the spaces between the glass with well packed sand and in another pile fill the spaces with concrete. Rubbing over the top of either pile will hit the glass and give the impression of skating on hardened steel, but if you now take a pointed steel posts and stab it down into the pile one will give and the other will just bounce the pole. This is the difference from files and hardness testers with penetrators. Also both piles will tear up anything soft dragged over it giving the impression of good cutting ability for both but when something hard is brought against them the sand will not be great support and the glass shard will tend to snap off and the pile will deform. This is a good analogy for blade that has fine pearlite or rely to heavily on carbides in a soft matrix.

macroscopic preparation and etching can only show you overall transitions of differing microstructures in the steel. For example you can get an idea of where the martensite peters out and the pearlite picks up. But contrary to popular belief it really can't tell you much about grain size at all. If you grains are visible to on the blade surface to the naked eye, they are WAY too big- as in throw the blade away. In order to use it for these more advanced methods of analysis, one needs to properly prepare a cross sectioned piece with extensive polishing and etch it in an appropriate etchant (I like 5% nital) and put it under a good microscope. It is worth mentioning that ferric chloride is all but useless for general metallography. Dipping a blade in HCL or FeCl will increase the contrast of the hardening line and allow you to more easily see how far up form the edge you hardened, which can be helpful, but that is about the extent of it.

Many use edge flexing, or overall flexing for that matter, but since it is so much more dependent on geometry than heat treating I just don't rely on it that much. I have a brass rod test, but it is a ½” rod and doesn't involve any slow flexing. I am into impact, and have never needed to slowly flex them over something, so I bring my sharpened edges into rapid contact with things that push the limits.

Cutting things is great! But cut a wide variety of things not just a few mediums that will make your knives shine under very specific circumstances, if it is to be a general use knife. If your customer wants the ultimate skinner, and will only ever use it for that, then you could specialize in just that area of cutting and make it really shine.

By far the toughest test one could subject a knife to, in my opinion, is give it to your wife or mother and allow them to use it for 1 month in the kitchen, I believe that environment goes beyond abuse and into the all out torture of knives.
 
.....
By far the toughest test one could subject a knife to, in my opinion, is give it to your wife or mother and allow them to use it for 1 month in the kitchen, I believe that environment goes beyond abuse and into the all out torture of knives.

That's funny, and so true. After 32 years of marriage, my wife nowadays keeps a set of Crocksticks out on the countertop 24/7, and can frequently be seen sharpening her own knives right before she starts preparing dinner. She's learned to like them very sharp. I love my wife.... :thumbup:
 
Thanks for the inpute on testing. Funny you should mention impact testing on brass rod. I have a test blade that I was chopping with and finally ended with 1/8" brass rod.I could chop 3/32" and not lose the edge. 1/8" would leave a very small flat. I feel a knife has to survive the real world, not just a pile of cardboard on the bench!!
 
I don't sharpen the kitchen knives as my honey'll cut herself sure as I'm typing this! I do most of the cooking anyhow so that's not worse abuse than what I do to them now. If it's expendable,I'll cut it,chop it,or stab it. If a knife don't cut, it aint worth makin' pretty!!!!
 
Sorry to drag out an old thread but here goes.
I have access to a double HT oven. I was considering heating my
0-1 to 1550 in the top and "quenching" it in a container of sand at 400F
in the bottom, thus an interrupted quench. This sound like it would work?
If this is metallurlogically(sp) sound how long does it need to stay at 400 prior to letting it air cool ?
Thanks
 
Many use edge flexing, or overall flexing for that matter, but since it is so much more dependent on geometry than heat treating I just don't rely on it that much. I have a brass rod test, but it is a ½” rod and doesn't involve any slow flexing. I am into impact, and have never needed to slowly flex them over something, so I bring my sharpened edges into rapid contact with things that push the limits.

Just to clarify this Kevin, do you simply chop downwards into the 1/2" brass rod, or is there some subtelty I'm missing? Also, I'm assuming that any dulling or rolling of the edge amounts to failure. Is there any other output of this test one should pay attention to?

Thanks,

-d
 
Tommegow, That won't work very well,as there will be an insulating effect of the 400 degree sand. It will keep the blade from cooling down from the 1550 as fast as will be required. You need some sort of media that will allow a fast heat transfer from the blade to the media (sand ain't it). Powdered platinum would be superb. For those with less than a million for the quenchant, any powdered material that will transfer the heat will work. Perhaps powdered steel for making damascus would be a good experiment. You also will have to be quenching a steel that has a fairly slow curve. L-6 comes to mind.
Stacy
 
Tommegow, That won't work very well,as there will be an insulating effect of the 400 degree sand. It will keep the blade from cooling down from the 1550 as fast as will be required. You need some sort of media that will allow a fast heat transfer from the blade to the media (sand ain't it). Powdered platinum would be superb. For those with less than a million for the quenchant, any powdered material that will transfer the heat will work. Perhaps powdered steel for making damascus would be a good experiment. You also will have to be quenching a steel that has a fairly slow curve. L-6 comes to mind.
Stacy

What about powdered aluminum Stacy? It'd be like a million little quench plates :)

-d
 
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