Intro, and Newbie Question

O

OV Dragonman

Joined
Nov 25, 2019
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Hello, and Happy Thanksgiving, from Oro Valley (Tucson) Arizona! I'm just starting into forging and knife making. I am currently taking a knife making class at Desert Metal Craft, under the eye of Rich Greenwood, and am really enjoying learning the craft. That project is nearing completion, and if I will post photos when I'm done. For the time being, I will be taking advantage of local Open Forge events, until I learn enough to set up a small workshop of my own, based on what I want to craft.

I have a pretty good grasp of basic terminology, but I am a little puzzled about the term "soak". I know this has to do with the steel conditioning process, but how is this different from tempering after quenching?

I've got to go start up my smoker for the Turkey!
 
Soak is used to designate the amount of time the steel has to hold at a certain temperature to put all the alloys into solution. As in 1095 should soak for 10 minutes at 1500 degrees before quench.
 
OV Dragonman said:
Hello, and Happy Thanksgiving, from Oro Valley (Tucson) Arizona! I'm just starting into forging and knife making. I am currently taking a knife making class at Desert Metal Craft, under the eye of Rich Greenwood, and am really enjoying learning the craft. That project is nearing completion, and if I will post photos when I'm done. For the time being, I will be taking advantage of local Open Forge events, until I learn enough to set up a small workshop of my own, based on what I want to craft.

I have a pretty good grasp of basic terminology, but I am a little puzzled about the term "soak". I know this has to do with the steel conditioning process, but how is this different from tempering after quenching?

I've got to go start up my smoker for the Turkey!
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Any steel should stay on specific temp . for some specific of time ..Just as Turkey :D
 
SBuzek said:
Soak is used to designate the amount of time the steel has to hold at a certain temperature to put all the alloys into solution. As in 1095 should soak for 10 minutes at 1500 degrees before quench.
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Hmmm . . . That might be a little difficult to accomplish with what I'm working with. I can temper in my toaster over, no problem getting to and holding 400°F, but 1) I have no oven that can reach more than a broil temp, 2) I have no thermometer that can read high enough, and 3) I have no budget for equipment at this point.

We did a quench of the blades we have in progress, in the class, but that was all based on the color of the steel in the forge. We are working with 1075, which I am told is a forgiving material, and the "hold" before quench was nowhere near 10 minutes. Did my tempering, as mentioned above, when I got home. Nice coloring, by the way, suggests I was successful with that part of the process. Prior to the quench, we did a "normalization" at three progressively cooler temps, again based on color.

Did we miss somethting by not being able to soak?
 
OV Dragonman said:
Hmmm . . . That might be a little difficult to accomplish with what I'm working with. I can temper in my toaster over, no problem getting to and holding 400°F, but 1) I have no oven that can reach more than a broil temp, 2) I have no thermometer that can read high enough, and 3) I have no budget for equipment at this point.
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didn't you just pay hundreds of dollars for the class with Rich? I'm not trying to be rude... but why don't you ask Rich?
and why not use his facilities for what you need?

I've taken classes and paid for training, part of what I invest in is a relationship with instructor....It doesn't mean free tech support for life, but they are there for me when I need them.

Anyway, if you want to drive up to the Verde Valley, you are welcome to do stuff at my shop.
 
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OV Dragonman said:
Did we miss something by not being able to soak?
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I don't work with 1075, so may not have all the necessary experience, but I wouldn't worry about it.

It's my understanding that the 10-series steels are referred to as 'simple' steels because they lack significant (if any) amounts of alloying elements (Co - increases strength, Mn - increases hardness (and brittleness), Ni - adds toughness and corrosion resistance, Cr - resists corrosion in amounts over ~ 12%, V - increases wear resistance, etc...) that need the time to get into solution, and thus don't require a soak.

I was also taught that 1095, although a simple steel, does need a bit more finicky HT in order to maximize the properties of the steel (which is one reason why many makers prefer 1080 or 1084) but I don't remember the exact reasons for this or the recipe. I want to say I was told that liquid Nitrogen is required, but will defer to any corrections.

But like Harbeer said, you paid for the class so ask your instructor.
 
HSC /// said:
didn't you just pay hundreds of dollars for the class with Rich? I'm not trying to be rude... but why don't you ask Rich?
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No offense taken, and you raise a valid point.

Soaking was not mentioned at all, so I was not aware of that step / term until after we did the heat treat. Next class is Monday and I will ask. Yeah, we al paid money for the class, and I am amazed at how few people take advantage of the small class size to ask questions. To his credit, Rich is very willing to address questions asked of him. Maybe it is because I am an, ahem . . ., more experienced student than most of the other, I expect to be able to ask questions of my instructors :)

I think I've seen your classes in the AABA newsletter. Up until know, I've been too inexperienced and intimidated to come on up. Let's see how this project finishes up, and, since I will have some idea of what I'm doing, you just may see me at a future offering!
 
IMO, if you can’t get accurate and consistent heat treat, you could very well be ‘polishing a turd’. It takes experience and skill to get the most out of the steel using a forge to heat treat. Some makers do it very well, I cannot. Don’t be afraid to send it out in the future, many excellent makers don’t heat treat.
 
Depending on where you got the 1075, it may not have broken up the spheroidization.
Unless it was a forging class, then you should be fine.
I had huge grain when I was using 1075 until I normalized starting at 1650 for 20 mins and thermal cycled a few times at descending temps.
 
Josh Rider said:
Depending on where you got the 1075, it may not have broken up the spheroidization.
Unless it was a forging class, then you should be fine.
I had huge grain when I was using 1075 until I normalized starting at 1650 for 20 mins and thermal cycled a few times at descending temps.
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Josh, check post#5 paragraph 2 they did 3 "Normalizing" cycles at different temps so they were on the right track...
 
To get back to the "soak", or hold time, issue.

Soaking when using a knifemaker's HT oven (very different than a kitchen oven) is merely a matter of programming the hold time at any given temperature.
When using a propane forge for HT, it is a bit trickier, but with some careful adjustments of the flame and a trained eye, you can soak a blade for a few minutes.
When using a coal forge, it is pretty hard to hold the temperature of the blade at the specific HT temperature more than 60 seconds.

The solution to the issues with propane or coal forges is to use simple steels that require little or no soak time. 1084 is the eutectoid and has low alloying, so it needs no longer than enough time to get evenly heated to the target temperature before quenching. 1075 and 108o are also simple steels that don't require a soak time.

With simple steels, the structure (internal arrangement of the elements) of steel is important to know when doing HT. If it is spheroidized to make it easier to drill and grind, then it will need to be re-structured before hardening. If you don't know the structure, it is best to treat all steel as if it is spheroidized.
Heat to 1850°F and cool to black.
Heat to 1650° and hold for a while, then cool to black.
Heat to 1600°, cool, 1500°, cool, and finally 1450° followed by a quench in oil. Heat to around 1350° ( just below non-magnetic), hold for a bit if possible, then cool to room temp. The steel will now be stress free and fine grained … ready for final hardening. An overnight bath in a plastic bucket of sodium bisulfate pickle ( Ph-Down and water) will clean off all the scale.
 
Thank you, Stacy. Your method sounds a lot like what our instructor has described as the sequence for "Thermal Cycling", followed by an oil quench. For now, I am working with 1075, which I also believe falls into that "simple steel" category. I have some 52100, and will be getting more, enough to make some mistakes, so that is the next steel I want to learn.
 
OV Dragonman said:
Thank you, Stacy. Your method sounds a lot like what our instructor has described as the sequence for "Thermal Cycling", followed by an oil quench. For now, I am working with 1075, which I also believe falls into that "simple steel" category. I have some 52100, and will be getting more, enough to make some mistakes, so that is the next steel I want to learn.
Click to expand...

normalizing is above ac3. Thermal cycling is between ac1 and ac3. Sub critical anneal is below ac1.
 
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