Iraq/Jammed weapons/CLP/Militec???

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knifenerd

Joined
Dec 27, 2000
Messages
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Just saw a very disturbing piece on ABC News re: lubricant problems in Iraq and jammed weapons. This issue first came to light during last weeks Jessica Lynch interview. Pvt. Lynch made reference to her weapon jamming and others as well, as far as I recall.

Now, it appears that the standard military issue lubricant was CLP (which I presume is Break-Free CLP). There were references to the fact that CLP led to the jamming due to the attraction of dust and debris in the Iraq desert environment. Militec was said to give much better performance in the dusty desert situation.

Please do not take this as a condemnation or endorsement of either product. In fact, both lubricants are in my "lubricant arsenal" and have proved very effective. I, of course, have never used either in a desert situation.

Stay tuned. I'm sure this issue will get a complete "airing".
 
This was coming out during the war. I can't remember where I read about it, not SOCNET, somewhere else. In fact, if I remember right, they printed back-and-forth letters between Militec (who claimed CLP wasn't working but reports from the field said Militec was) and whatever general's office is responsible for approval of CLP for this use. Interesting stuff.

Joe
 
Weapons malfunction for lots of reasons, and to group all of these into "lubricant failures" is foolish at best. FWIW there is some seriously bad marketing going on here by Militec. Winning military contracts by saying that every time a weapon fails or a soldier dies it was because of CLP is irresponsible and incorrect.

From someone who has BTDT I will tell you that at least 5 out of 10 troops, regarless of the unit, will fail to maintain their equipment properly.

CLP is not the best stuff on the market, especially if it is ROYCO contract stuff, but Militec-1 isn't too hot either, and fails to meet all its claims.

Regards,

Clay


www.militec-1.com

www.fp10.com
 
I heard stories from the first Gulf War about the British SA-80's jamming up because of sand sticking to the lubricant. From what I understand they stopped using oil based lubricants or stopped using lube altogether. If somebody can remember, how did they remedy this problem?

Edited to correct...SA-80's, not SLR's
 
In a dry, arid environment in which blowing sand and dust is an issue, there are two ways to go. Dry lube, or a wipe off product that will leave a boundary film for adequate lubrication.

A product like Dri-Slide is a perfect example of a dry lubricant.

www.drislide.com

Militec-1 and FP-10 CLP are of course "wet" lubes, but both products can be wiped dry and will still perform well as a lubricant, due to extreme pressure additives which form a boundary film on the metal.

www.militec-1.com

www.fp10.com

One common misconception is that corrosion isn't a concern in the desert, and nothing could be farther from the truth. Sweat and condensation are alive and well. Next time you see a crazy terrorist shaking his AK on CNN, look at the rust on the barrel. This is one area in which Militec-1 fails miserably. It is a lousy rust preventative.
 
All I can say is Militec got my stuff moving better than Tuf-Glide did.
 
Originally posted by zombiehunter
I heard stories from the first Gulf War about the British SLR's jamming up because of sand sticking to the lubricant. From what I understand they stopped using oil based lubricants or stopped using lube altogether. If somebody can remember, how did they remedy this problem?
Click to expand...

Hi Guys
During the 1st Gulf War the Brits were using (and still do) the Enfield SA80 rifle which from all accounts was not up to the job. Had failures due to poor design and tolerance for fouling. The SLR or FN rifle was a proper weapon with excellent design and functionality.NZ army replaced them with the Styer 'thing'and sold the SLRs off, you could get unissued one for about NZ$400 still in grease.
Phil
 
Thanks fullplate, I fixed my post. I didn't think the SLR's would have problems jamming. Thanks for correcting me.

-Jared
 
sounds like the voice of experiance hasn't been heeded. When I was in the Army the manuel said "lube generously". The older/wiser soldiers knew to vary this theory to the situation. Real cold or real dry and sandy VERY light to no oil on the bolt. It would either freeze up the action or attract debris and lock up. Sure in the long run a rifle doesn't last forever without lube but that's why you maintain your gear when you can and prepare it for your immediate situation. Personally I have never liked CLP or Miltec. Tri Flow YES!!!!! A nice penetrating teflon lube :) I have used Miltec and CLP on knives before and within a week seen surface rust form :(
Just my $.02
 
I for one living the Sand Box here, we cleaned ,wiped, and lubed lightly(finger tip)every chance you get down time. Sand is hard to avoid so I have learned to keep port injection closed (People Forget this) and follow the steps above.

This is my experience in the Great Sand Box of the US.

S/F,
Ceya..Ceya Knife Designz
 
US Forces had troubles early on with weapons jamming due to sand. They switched from CLP to Militec and the problem went away.

I strongly suspect that they also, subconciously if not deliberately, changed their techniques to use less lubricant.

Most of my guns are H&K (I drive a Mercedes too. Love that German engineering.). H&K specifically cautions in their manuals against any lubricant that claims to penetrate for bond with the surface. So, I e-mailed them before using Militec-1. Their reply was that Militec-1 is their favorite lubricant. They highly recommend it.

Militec-1 is heat-activated. To achieve optimum lubrication and any rust protection, you need to heat the surface up. This is why guns lubricated with Militec just get better and better with each firing. For knives, I recommend using a hair drier to heat the blade up. Whenever you talk about heating a blade, someone gets their heckles up about ruining the temper. To affect the temper, you need to heat the steel above it's final heat treatment temperature. For must about all knives, that final heat treatment temperature is above 300F. Water boils a little above 200F. So, if the knife doesn't get hot enough to boil a drop of water dripped onto it, you're safe. BTW: a hair drier that gets hot enough to boil water would be very dangerous to use. Hair driers that are UL approved won't get anywhere near even this hot.
 
At the risk of triggering those who have an instant negative reaction to Col. David Hackworth, USA Retired, may I suggest that some time spent searching his site, www.sftt.org, would be time well spent if you want to hear what the field troops had to say about their experiences with the various lubricants and with M-16A2 jamming problems in general in Iraq. There are a number of pieces that have appeared over the last several months, so it may take some time searching the archives, but there is a wealth of field experience there. This is as opposed to the rather politically slanted reports that appeared in the media, both from the left and from the right.

As for what I use on my knives, I have found that Sentry Cloths and Sentry Solution seem to work very well, even in the humidity around the DC area. (Required knife content. :))
 
I was a Soldier for six years and used the M16A1 and the M16A2 as well as other hand-held weapons, and I am a vet of the 1st Gulf War, and I have never even seen a weapon jam due to using a specific type of lubricate.
The failure that I have witnessed were due to bad ammo that refused to feed properly, magazines that had been damaged, and weapons that had not been properly maintained.

As for the Jessica Lynch senario...
I don't like being a "Monday morning quarterback", but what are the chances that the lubricate caused ALL the rifles to jam?

I'm inclined to believe it was the ammo or the rifles themselves or operator failure.

Good luck,
Allen.
 
This is one area in which Militec-1 fails miserably. It is a lousy rust preventative
Click to expand...

I use Militec-1 exclusively on my guns and knives. Even after an incredibly wet (for the first 6 months of this year, it was either snowing or raining) year, I've had no rust problems on any gun or knife I've used it on, even the non-stainless items. It may not be the best, but I wouldn't go so far to say it's lousy.

Chris
 
The Enfied SA80 that we (Btits) use is not well liked amongst the soldiers because it has a poor reliability reputation. In a dust filled environment things can only be worse. As to lubrication I could not tell you what was used.

I have read the SAS use the M4A1 / M16A2 or other superior weapons, as they don't consider the SA80 reliable enough.
 
I have been using Eezox lately and have been pleased with it. Anyone else use it?
Also, I have used all the ones' mentioned and all are good IMHO.
I don't think that you can always blame a weapon jam on a lube, to the contrary, I think that the lube is rarely the culprit for a jam, just my two cents!
 
For what it is worth -

Was in KU for 7 months during the build-up. Then Baghdad. Then home. Then Baghdad for 90 more days. Just got home.

1. Lynch's unit was a maint. unit. Saw many of them over there, to include those at Camp Virginia where 507 apparently deployed from. The maint. units didn't maintain their weapons to the degree necessary for the environment. Not their fault. They didn't know any better and there was no one to tell them differently from the combat arms side of the house.

Maint. units did not spend much, if any, time at the limited ranges other than to zero their weapons.

Plus, they did not clean and maintain their magazines as a whole and on a regular basis. Magazine problems were the cause of many pistol and rifle malfunctions. The weapon may have been "clean" but the mags were a disaster. M9 mags were the worst.

I trained one support element (Intel) in H2H for 5 weeks before the war. Young soldiers, young men and women. They had little experience and no consistent leadership in how to stay alive in the environment / much less a firefight. They came to my training as volunteers, on their own, after 12 hour workdays. All of them went into Baghdad in early April. They did well.

ANY wet lubricant sucks over there. The dry lubricants aren't much better. And, you can't keep an endless supply of this stuff on hand for everyone. Rangers proved it in Afghanistan (2nd BATT), and we proved it in KU and Iraq. Clean the weapon twice a day if possible, even if just a 5 minute wipe down. Clean it dry. Clean and service the mags every day. Rotate them out while doing so. Takes two minutes to disassemble and wipe down a mag, rifle or pistol. That is what keeps you operating.

This last go-around I carried an AK (TABUK, short barrel). AKs do not jam unless seriously screwed up; their mags do not screw up because they are built like bulldozers; and the 7.62X39 is a rock buster up to 400 meters...and a car stopper...and a man killer...and a vest buster. Carried a TAJIK 9mm pistol (8 rounds, Iraqi made). Just didn't jam due to strong, single stack mag and Beretta style ejection. However, much better than the 92 in the field. We had a 92 available and NO ONE would carry it. Glocks, Tajiks, or the occassional High Power were/are preferred.

Finally, a number of Lynch's fellow soldiers successfully engaged the enemy with M16s that didn't jam. Probably cleaned them regularly and correctly, to include mags.

GW
 
A lot of good responses here. I especially liked the posts from the military guys who have had actual hands-on experience.

It appears that in spite of all the good lubricants out there, nothing takes the place of "brain power", particularly when one has to consider the unique circumstances/environment that the weapon is to be used in.

Thanks for the many good responses.:)
 
Originally posted by allenC
The failure that I have witnessed were due to bad ammo that refused to feed properly, magazines that had been damaged, and weapons that had not been properly maintained
Click to expand...

yup
but once in a while sand and mud does get in and gunk up the works
 
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