iraqi prison thing...

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Oct 9, 2003
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I think the photos were taken on purpose and released to the public on purpose.
I was just looking at the photos and some old psy-ops stuff popped into my head.
Pictures or suggestions of sexual dominance of the military personnel are sometimes used to intimidate the enemy. In the case of a very repressed and closed sexual environment like the arab world, these kinds of pictures would be devastating.
The worst thing would be naked iraqi men being laughed at by a clothed american woman.

now, an iraqi woman being raped by an american would only build resistance.
but an american woman and iraqi men, that destroys the morale of the enemy.

maybe i am doing a disservice saying this, if i am indeed correct about this being a psyops ploy, but i thought you guys might find the idea interesting...
 
could be, but wouldn't cluster bombs or crop-dusters filled with Pig's blood do about the same thing?;):D

Strange also to show dominance over folks who are supposedly gonna have independence and autonomy soon. I think the psy ops were meant for us and the rest of the world. Then they can say tantalizing things like "these photos were suppressed" or "what the military doesn't want you to know"

Still, nothing will beat the grisly vid images of Daniel Pearl's execution by muslim radicals outta my mind. NOTHING.

Keith
 
Classic! Does that come with FREEDOM® fries?:D:D:D

At least the war on terrorism as going as well as the war on drugs, ya jest cain't find no drugs nowhere these days ;)(Viagra, Nexium, Wellbutrin Zanax, fat pills, thin pills, happy pills, stop smokin pills)

Keith
 
Danny,

Good thinking and excellent understanding of strategy.

Strategy serves policy, which serves philosophy. It would be a good tactical strategy, but one that might be too costly in terms of loss of face by the US to the global community. Which seems to be what has happened.

Just a thought.
 
I don't know if those pics were part of a psy-ops campaign or not.

One thing is certain, if people think that the rather "frat-boy initiation" antics perpetrated by a bunch of poorly supervised troops is "torture" then they clearly have had their heads up their rears for the last several years.

The other thing to keep in mind is that the people in those Iraqi prisons are not in there because they were singing too loud in church.

American troops in Iraq are treated every day to having their buddies blown up or ambushed, and the treatment of Americans and others at the hands of Iraqi insurgents is enough to build a pretty high level of hate. How soon everyone seems to have forgotten the ambush and slaying of four civilians and their mutilation and display by dancing and cheering Iraqis.

How quickly people have forgotten the slaying of other American civilians, and the execution slaying of Fabrizio Quattrochi.

Folks, unless you've been in a situation like that, it is real hard to understand how one's view of the "enemy" changes.

I am not offering this as an excuse, but as an explanation.

The American troops who engaged in these rather harmless (let's be realistic and keep this in perspective, shall we?) antics were acting in violation of the Geneva Convention and The Laws of Land Warfare. They were also acting no doubt, in violation of standard US Army policy. You will see virtually all of the participants in this overblown farce, court-martialed. There will be a lot of jail time served, and deservedly so.

But again, let's keep this in perspective. We have over 150,000 troops in Iraq, and the US military has bent over backwards to avoid civilian casualties and a lot of Americans have died in their efforts to follow the Hague and Geneva Conventions, and the Laws of Land Warfare.

In every group of people, you are going to have those who, when given power, will abuse it. And when you put that in the context of enemy combatants who may well have just killed fellow soldiers, it is an ugly combination.

You will see the people who participated in these acts be criminally charged under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and most, if not all will spend the next several years in Leavenworth, Kansas or Mannheim Military Prison in Germany. They will be dishonorably discharged when their tours are up.

Their first line supervisors will be charged as well and unless they have some really special extenuating and mitigating circumstances, they will be convicted as well, and even if not convicted, their careers are essentially over, and given the US military's "Up or Out" policy, they will be booted out within a few years.

Their Junior Officers will be court-martialed. Some will be convicted, but all will will have a taint on their records and I can assure you that these men and women will also be leaving the military under less than honorable conditions.

Their middle-grade officers will be investigated. Many will be court-martialed. Some might serve time in prison. All of their careers are basically dead in the water.

There does come a point though at which you cannot hold a senior commander DIRECTLY responsible for the actions of his or her subordinates. We Americans need to understand that. The notion I see put forth by some that everyone in the chain in the command all the way up to Don Rumsfeld must be cashiered is nothing short of political decimation. It is an unfair demand that goes counter to not just our legal system, but our culture as well.

As long as there are human beings on the "sharp end" of any conflict, there will be those who cannot handle their responsibility and power. No level of supervision and no amount of daily or even hourly reports and no amount of bureaucratic policy will keep every human being at the lowest levels from doing something hateful, stupid or negligent.

Don
 
Don Nelson said:
As long as there are human beings on the "sharp end" of any conflict, there will be those who cannot handle their responsibility and power. No level of supervision and no amount of daily or even hourly reports and no amount of bureaucratic policy will keep every human being at the lowest levels from doing something hateful, stupid or negligent.
Don
I have to agree with you here.
 
Are there any pictures of people who went to Saddam's prisions? Not that it's an excuse but it might be worth it to compare the two.
 
wow....thought this kind of stuff only popped up on JAG reruns....


:footinmou
 
I just don't see what's the big deal about a pile of naked men.
When I lived in San Francisco I knew plenty of guys who would give a weeks pay to get into such a pile.

Those Arabs should feel lucky the US isn't using the traditional methods of psychological warfare such as decapitation and disembowelment.
 
These "relatively harmless antics" have the potential to bring perception of the US down to the moral level of those we fought to remove from power. As such, I consider them treason (as they did indeed aid and abet the enemy), and would have the perpetrators given a fair trial, to be sure they did indeed commit these, acts, then (if judged to be guilty of them) lined up in front of a wall, and each given 3 rounds of .30 to the chest.

It doesn't matter if these people are being held because they raped and tortured busloads of nuns to death. We will not treat them without as much dignity as possible. This is our very necessary standard, and to use less is to spit upon the many good men and women who have bled in our country's service.

It is a very different thing to enforce one's will upon a conquered enemy, than it is to face a declared enemy at large. Crowds cheering for or toying with the bodies of my countrymen, were I in charge, would be levelled with the most destructive non-nuclear devices at my disposal.

John
 
Spectre- if you don't like women holding leashes on men- then change the way psyops and military intelligence and the CIA do their work.
If these soldiers did this on their own- fine, punish them.

What is of real concern is any torture or murder.


munk
 
Not true. Of "real concern" is anything that will cast the US as an entity in a negative light by a relatively objective observer. Some will view us as a the "bad guy" in any case, but anything that makes it easy to see the US in this way is of "real concern".

These jackholes who did this to the prisoners have done so much more to further resistance to the US than any number of suicide bombers, so in a very real way, they are now responsible for many American dead. I would kill them without remorse, were I legally empowered to do so.
 
Spectre- see my response in the other thread. I find if I respond here and now I will be just mirroring your own anger and irrationaliity.

munk
 
Speaking of Psy-Ops, there was an interesting suggestion in the Guardian newspaper the other day, it seems that in part it is due to the ex-SF guys working for security companies and their communication with serving soldiers, particularly ex-SAS, commandos and paras. There is an interrogation system called R21 that was developed by the British military and intelligence organisations that is now being used by US prison guards (and to a lesser extent British soldiers, I say lesser extent because they are not in a prison situation). The interrogation system is taught to special forces operatives in order that they can interrogate prisoners but more importantly so that they know what to expect if they get captured and can survive the most intensive interrogation program in the world. Anyhow, it seems that the people who have left and started to work for these security organisations are teaching the interrogation methods to mp's etc.

Not sure how true it is, but it makes sense to me as I have heard about R21 before.
 
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