Is 3V tougher than 1095? Or as-tough with better wear resistance?

S

starter17

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I'm sure this has been discussed ad-nauseum, but despite my best forum-search and Google search efforts, I can't seem to find an answer.

Some say 3V has the same general toughness as 1095, but it does so while also being able to be made harder and more wear resistant, for longer edge retention.

Others say 3V is tougher than 1095, but they don't give any examples I understand, just metallurgy charts... If it's tougher, how much tougher would a 3V blade be than a 1095 blade, assuming identical shape, thickness, and both at their respective optimal heat treats? 10%? 50%? More?

Also, when I say "toughness" I hope I'm using the term correctly. I mean both impact toughness from activities like batoning and chopping, and lateral toughness from activities like prying.

A real-world explanation of why I want this info is that while my 3V knives are great, they can be difficult to sharpen well in the wild... 1095 is much easier, at least for me. I prefer an edge that dulls quicker but is easier to get razor sharp under less-than-optimal conditions. Toughness is a huge factor for me, but if I'm not giving up any (or only a negligible amount) by going back to 1095, then I think it's my better option.
 
Sharpening the hi-tech blades is easy -- if yiou use diamond sharpeners !!
There are many diamonds for us knife people , use them , be happy !
CPM-3V is considered tougher than most other hi-tech steels so it's big step above 1095 !
Get one and enjoy !
 
Mete,

It was my understanding the the toughest steels are the simplest ones, because carbide formation decreases toughness. Are you saying that 3V is tougher than 1095 because they are both carbide formers anyway, or because of 3V's formulation?

I would think 1075 would be tougher than 3V at the same hardness, for instance. I don't really know what that means in terms of something like S7, though.
 
RX-79G said:
Mete,

It was my understanding the the toughest steels are the simplest ones, because carbide formation decreases toughness. Are you saying that 3V is tougher than 1095 because they are both carbide formers anyway, or because of 3V's formulation?

I would think 1075 would be tougher than 3V at the same hardness, for instance. I don't really know what that means in terms of something like S7, though.
Click to expand...

There are alloying elements that improve toughness and nothing is ever simple. Gotta compare the steels at the same or similar Hrc for things to work. 3V is pretty unquestionably tougher than 1095 at Hrc 62, but at 55? I'm not sure. S7 will be tougher than either at 57-58 Hrc, that much I know.
 
Yeah, I guess I'm really wonder about a eutectoid steel, like 1080. No carbides. At 60 Hrc it should (in theory, anyway) be tougher than 3V at 60. But the edge will wear faster on the 1080.
 
You're trying to oversimplify things. Yes the 1080 and 1084 are tough without carbides . But other alloying elements involve toughness also. So do carbide sizes. Smaller the carbides the tougher the metal ,same with grain size , smaller grains give higher toughness ! But asked about toughness those who have compared things put S-7 [S for shock ] and CPM-3V way up on the list !
 
mete said:
You're trying to oversimplify things. Yes the 1080 and 1084 are tough without carbides . But other alloying elements involve toughness also. So do carbide sizes. Smaller the carbides the tougher the metal ,same with grain size , smaller grains give higher toughness ! But asked about toughness those who have compared things put S-7 [S for shock ] and CPM-3V way up on the list !
Click to expand...

I take for granted that small grain equals more toughness.

In reality I don't actually know.

I can see the results but I don't understand.

How is a PM steel tougher?
 
I may be oversimplifying the cause, but aren't there Charpy tests that say what the effect is?

On another forum that specializes in blade metallurgy there was a popular consensus that 3V was very tough, for a high alloy/high wear resistant steel.
 
It gets to a point were we all see the performance but don't understand the mechanism involved.

For instance, Electrolytes.

"Yeah, I know what those are they quench your thirst!"

But how?

"Because there in Gatorade "

But why?

"Because they quench your thirst!"
(Brawndo, haha)

I'd really like to know how CPM and even finer grain in gerenal makes a steel tougher.

I can see it working

But I don't know the mechanisms involved

And my Google powers are weak and lead to source that are difficult to apply to knives
 
DeadboxHero said:
How is a PM steel tougher?
Click to expand...

In a nutshell, lamens explanation, when the Steel and all the added elements is melted down into its molten form, as all steels start out, it is pretty uniform throughout its structure, but as it cools and dries, different elements cool and harden at different rates, and the uniform molten form begins to seperate on a micro level, creating carbides, dendrites, etc, which become less uniform throughout, some larger, some smaller, some clusters, etc.

PM process sprays the molten (uniform) Steel into droplets that solidify, and because the uniform droplets are A) so small they cool faster, limiting the separating effects, and B) are so small, any micro separation, clustering, and carbide formation that does take place is restricted to a much smaller droplet sized scale.
Those droplets then, being more uniform themselves, with smaller grains and carbides, are fused/(melted) back together to form the "whole", and thus that PM'd whole is going to have a more uniform structure, with smaller uniform grains, then would a non pm'd piece of the same Steel which can have those irregularities, larger grains, larger carbides, and less uniformity throughout.
 
The toughness you refer to is the correct use of the term. You are referring to fracture resistance. The finer the grain and carbides the less they will act as stress risers and create the start of a fracture propagation.
3v is considerably tougher than 1095 at higher hardnesses. (think twice the energy absorbed).

Why this matters is well explained here http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/s...-Same-toughness-increased-cutting-performance

How is the sum of complex chemical, atomic, and physics details. That even with two engineering degrees is not simple to explain.

In the end what matters is the results of the testing rather than the theoretical explanation of how it is likely achieved.
 
CPM3V is supposed to be much tougher + much better wear resistance than 1095. Google "steel toughness chart 1095 CPM3V" and you should turn up results. There's also a pdf on crucible's site that has the charpy values. CPM3V is like 85 ft-lbs @ 58 Rc whereas A2 is like 40 ft-lbs. I don't know the exact 1095 charpy value but A2 is supposedly about twice as tough as 1095.

Where I get crossed up about all this is that most knives are not made of these different steels in the exact same models. The CPM3V knives are usually made thinner than competitor's knives in 1095. And it also depends on the heat treat/rockwell hardness. So which is tougher, a 5/16 inch thick carbon steel knife or a CPM3V knife that is less than 3/16 thick? I suppose only extensive field testing would show.
 
3V can be up to twice as tough as A2 and 50% tougher than L6. os yes, it is tougher than 1095. it is my impression that a number of knife manufacturers claim that they get their 1095 blades "tough" by leaving them too soft, as low as 55Rc as best as I can tell. Putting aside any weird issues that might cause, you are leaving ton of CUTTING performance on the table. The interesting thing about shallow hardening steel like 1095 or W2 is that even if you take it up over 60Rc, the spine on the sticker blade will typically not get that hard. So what is the point of leaving it soft? As far as wear resistance goes. CPM 3V is supposed to be the equal of CPM 154 even at 58Rc.
 
I found this data on Cliff Stamp's site. It clearly illustrates that 3V is, indeed, about the toughest regular blade steel. But it also demonstrates how tough steels like A2 and L6 are (makes me want an L6 knife). While not in the data, I would assume 1095 to be somewhere between D2 and O1. Also, most of the tool and more basic steels are clearly tougher than the stainless and high edge holding steels, like M4 and S30V, and relatively close to each other.

http://www.cliffstamp.com/knives/forum/read.php?17,12501
 
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