Is 80crv2 a good beginners steel

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skillgannon

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I'm pretty new to knife making and am trying to harden with a small gas forge. I have been using 1084 but would like to have other options. Is this a steel I can use easily without a oven?
 
80CRV2 is kinda forgiving steel when it come to HT. There are plenty of makers who got great result with difference range of temperature from 1500F to 1575F
 
Yes, it is a good forging steel and takes tough knives. HT at 1550-1575F with a 5 minute hold, and temper at 400F.
 
I only have atwo brick forge and canola oil for HT, so 1084 is ideal for me. But when I ran out of 1084 for a bit, I tried 15N20 and liked the result. I liked it so much that I have both steels in hand right now. Only issue is that 15N20 doesn't tend to be available in thicker stock if you're making thicker blades.
 
When I fist started I was in a similar spot (although I used coal instead of gas at first). I used 80crv2 and 15n20. You if you already use 1084 maybe just stick with that because it is very similar to 80crv2. I would recommend that once you run out of 1084, then buy some 80crv2. You won't have any trouble with HT, and the results are very good.

Another recommendation would be to try out some 1075 from NJ Steel Baron. That is a good steel to get into hamons if you become interested in that. 1075 is similar to 15n20 just no nickel and less manganese.

It's a good idea to try out different steels that are similar in make up to steels you already know. So if you want to try some different steels go for 80crv2 and some 1075.

Good luck!
 
Personally, I would choose 1084 over 1075 BECAUSE it has more manganese.
running bird said:
When I fist started I was in a similar spot (although I used coal instead of gas at first). I used 80crv2 and 15n20. You if you already use 1084 maybe just stick with that because it is very similar to 80crv2. I would recommend that once you run out of 1084, then buy some 80crv2. You won't have any trouble with HT, and the results are very good.

Another recommendation would be to try out some 1075 from NJ Steel Baron. That is a good steel to get into hamons if you become interested in that. 1075 is similar to 15n20 just no nickel and less manganese.

It's a good idea to try out different steels that are similar in make up to steels you already know. So if you want to try some different steels go for 80crv2 and some 1075.

Good luck!
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Why such high austenitizing temps? It is a tougher (Cr), finer grained (V) 1080 after all. 1500F gives me roughly 65-66. It is indeed a good "beginner" steel, and if you have the ability to soak for a 5-10 minute window, even better.
 
The main reason is because it is slightly hypo-eutectiod.

The manufacturer specs give temps are between 1550 and 1615F. For knife thicknesses and the structures we desire, 1550F will suffice. I recommend people with no oven use the median of 1575F as a starting point. The main point is that it is fairly forgiving of poor temperature control, allowing a wide swing with good results. The vanadium keeps grain growth down, again allowing for por temp regulation.

Yes it is basically 1084 with alloying. It is the alloying that needs higher austenitization temps. If you run it at 1500F it will still harden, but some of the alloying won't be where you want it.
Just like other higher alloy carbon steels, they all form the same amount of hard steel as 1080. This can be done by heating to around 1450. The difference in all the temperatures is to get the other things into solution so they come back after cooling in structures and places you want them. In some cases, you deliberately use a lower temperature to leave them out of carbides.
 
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It is a technically a eutectoid steel, not hypoeutectoid. But I do believe you are correct in that the vanadium will prevent grain growth even at high aus temps, and that the steel is VERY forgiving of hardening temp, and give good results either way. And being little excess carbon, retained austenite would be minimal even with higher aus temps as well. If 1575F gives 65-66HRC+ post quench.....via con Dios. I have gotten excellent results with the 1500°F 5-8 minute soak, and 130°F canola. 400F tempers ~62HRC.
 
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1084....I would take to 1500°F, equalize, and quench in medium speed oil. No alloying in 1084. (I have used P50 with great results on 1084).
80CrV2 (1080+)....I would take to 1500°F, equalize and soak 5-10 minutes, and quench in medium speed oil.
Walk your tempers up to where you want them, especially working with new steels. Start low, 375F, work up. You may need to get well above 400F for 61HRC. Maybe 430F. It's been a few years.
From my perspective, the 80CrV2 we have available is basically 1080CroVan.
 
It depends on the condition of the steel too. If normalized, thermal cycles, and fine spheroidized, 1475 to 1500f has worked for me. If coming from pearlite, a slightly higher temp will get the alloys where you want them. From a fine spheroidized condition, you just need to get the carbon into solution, and not mess up your structures. From pearlite, it'll take a bit of a soak to get things where you want them.
 
From what Chuck has said about his carbon steels, they are fine spheroidized (normalizing and cycling technically have been done as the steel is rolled into plates/bars). Aldo's steels are historically more heavily spheroidized, and probably "should" be normalized/cycled first. I do this on his carbon steels, just for piece of mind. Chuck's steels....right to hardening.

My understanding, tho, is the opposite of what Warren said. If the steel has been air cooled after normalizing/cycling, then it's microstructure is fine pearlite, and thus the carbon/alloys are more readily put into solution on the hardening heat. If the steel was spheroidized AFTER normalizing/cycling (even fine spheroidized), then the soak needs to be longer...because your carbon has been balled up into carbides with the alloying, and thus requires the soak to put back into solution, compared to fine pearlite where everything is "ready to go" so to speak.

I asked Kevin what is the BEST microstructure to harden from (carbon steels). 1. Fine Pearlite 2. Upper Bainite 3. Fine spheroidized. That is NOT to say that fine spheroidized is NOT a good microstructure to harden from, it is (obviously....O1 comes fine spheroidized and ready to harden from that state). FS=good. UB=better. FP=best.

So for 80CrV2, if it was from Chuck, I would have no issues hardening without any normalizing and cycling. It will be received as fine spheroidized. Spheroidized structures need the soak (or higher hardening temps which can bring their own issues, luckily these issues are not a concern with 80CrV2, namely grain growth and RA). So the higher aus temp/shorter soak is good HT for this steel. As in 1500F for 10 minutes, or 1530F for 5 minutes. I am hesitant to go much higher than 1530F. We are trying to reach max HRC (with a good microstructure) post quench. If 1575F gives a good solid 65-66 post quench, awesome. I have a feeling the actual HRC will be lower (slightly) using that higher heat. Not sure...don't quote me.

If it was Aldo's 80CrV2, for my own piece of mind due to the history with some of his other steels (notably the 52100 being so heavily spheroidized), I would normalize, cycle, then harden. As in 1650F with an air cool, 1500F air cool, 1475F air cool, 1450F air cool, harden at 1500F/5 minute soak. If you saw the need to spheroidize anneal after the final thermal cycle, then lengthen the soak a tad. I don't really see the need to spheroidize a steel like this after it has been cycled and has a fine pearlite microstructure (unless you were doing CNC type work and tool life is concern). Steels like A2 and stainless need the spheroidizing, because any thermal cycle will harden to martensite with an air cool, and cause problems if hardened from a martensite matrix. That is not set in stone, as some are now experimenting with pre-quench, but now I'm getting way off track.

With all that said, 80CrV2 is indeed a very forgiving steel in the HT. It is eutectoid and thus the hardening temp window is large. It has vanadium to keep grain growth in check. It has a decent Mn count so a medium speed oil will work well. It has some Cr which also adds to the hardenability and gives the steel greater toughness.
 
For tempering 80crv2 I usually bring it to 390F for the first cycle. Second cycle I bring it to 425F. Depending on how the steel holds up there I will bring it to 450F or just leave it be after 425F.

As others have said 80crv2 will benefit from a bit of a soak. I would recommend practicing holding your steel at critical. It make take a while to learn, but the results are definitely worth the practice.

Just be sure you heat up your oven before you go out to do the quench. You want to temper the blade as soon as you can after the quench.

Especially with 80crv2 make sure you drill your pin holes before HT. If you don't you will likely go through several bits trying to make it through.
 
samuraistuart said:
From what Chuck has said about his carbon steels, they are fine spheroidized (normalizing and cycling technically have been done as the steel is rolled into plates/bars). Aldo's steels are historically more heavily spheroidized, and probably "should" be normalized/cycled first. I do this on his carbon steels, just for piece of mind. Chuck's steels....right to hardening.

My understanding, tho, is the opposite of what Warren said. If the steel has been air cooled after normalizing/cycling, then it's microstructure is fine pearlite, and thus the carbon/alloys are more readily put into solution on the hardening heat. If the steel was spheroidized AFTER normalizing/cycling (even fine spheroidized), then the soak needs to be longer...because your carbon has been balled up into carbides with the alloying, and thus requires the soak to put back into solution, compared to fine pearlite where everything is "ready to go" so to speak.

I asked Kevin what is the BEST microstructure to harden from (carbon steels). 1. Fine Pearlite 2. Upper Bainite 3. Fine spheroidized. That is NOT to say that fine spheroidized is NOT a good microstructure to harden from, it is (obviously....O1 comes fine spheroidized and ready to harden from that state). FS=good. UB=better. FP=best.

So for 80CrV2, if it was from Chuck, I would have no issues hardening without any normalizing and cycling. It will be received as fine spheroidized. Spheroidized structures need the soak (or higher hardening temps which can bring their own issues, luckily these issues are not a concern with 80CrV2, namely grain growth and RA). So the higher aus temp/shorter soak is good HT for this steel. As in 1500F for 10 minutes, or 1530F for 5 minutes. I am hesitant to go much higher than 1530F. We are trying to reach max HRC (with a good microstructure) post quench. If 1575F gives a good solid 65-66 post quench, awesome. I have a feeling the actual HRC will be lower (slightly) using that higher heat. Not sure...don't quote me.

If it was Aldo's 80CrV2, for my own piece of mind due to the history with some of his other steels (notably the 52100 being so heavily spheroidized), I would normalize, cycle, then harden. As in 1650F with an air cool, 1500F air cool, 1475F air cool, 1450F air cool, harden at 1500F/5 minute soak. If you saw the need to spheroidize anneal after the final thermal cycle, then lengthen the soak a tad. I don't really see the need to spheroidize a steel like this after it has been cycled and has a fine pearlite microstructure (unless you were doing CNC type work and tool life is concern). Steels like A2 and stainless need the spheroidizing, because any thermal cycle will harden to martensite with an air cool, and cause problems if hardened from a martensite matrix. That is not set in stone, as some are now experimenting with pre-quench, but now I'm getting way off track.

With all that said, 80CrV2 is indeed a very forgiving steel in the HT. It is eutectoid and thus the hardening temp window is large. It has vanadium to keep grain growth in check. It has a decent Mn count so a medium speed oil will work well. It has some Cr which also adds to the hardenability and gives the steel greater toughness.
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Thanks for this. I'll do some more reading and get my information straight.

I was thinking coarse pearlite, rather than fine, but I didn't specify that. I spheroidize the steel as I sometimes normalize and cycle the steel before grinding. Belt life is much longer if I spheroidize first.

This metallurgy is a flippin' rabbit hole.

The higher temp austentize is from Peter's heat treat iirc. I seem to recall they are using cryo as part of the heat treat. Maybe someone can chime in and confirm that if they know for sure.
 
I'm still pretty foggy with the metallurgy too. Why would you use cryo on this? Isn't it mostly to get rid of retained austinite? Is that a problem?
 
The best micro structure to start with is actually martensite.

Its took less time to dissolve carbon from martensite to austenite and quench to martensite again at phase transformation.
That is the reason why multiple quench will yield more refined and overall better grain structure.

I know there are many people will say thermal cycle > multi-quench or the multi quench is not worth the risk of distortion but actually with some practice you can do both and the different in performance is quite noticeable.
 
How critical is the soak on this steel? I have a gas forge I have been heat treating 1084 in but would like to use some 80crv2 but not sure how to get that soak time in my forge?

JP
 
Just to be a bit persnickety, this steel is technically hypereutectoid, but just barely. The eutectoid point is not fixed and the common alloying elements for steels like this (low alloy steels) lower the eutectoid carbon content. With both some chromium and some vanadium, the eutectoid point is most likely lower than the 0.80% nominal carbon content in this steel. How much difference does that make? Probably none.
 
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