Is annealing always necessary?

[R.C.Reichert]

If I forge out a blade of 1084 and simply normalize once after forging at 1600°F, letting it air cool, can I just go straight to grinding and then hardening/ tempering, or does it absolutely need to be annealed at some point? Is annealing a crucial step in all cases, or is it only just needed if I were to find the steel got too hard to cold work with drill bits, or a file?

 

[Stacy E. Apelt - Bladesmith]

Annealing is mostly for working purposes. It does not have to be annealed if it was forged and normalized properly, but it is a good idea.

Grain refinement is part of normalizing to me.

Read this and it will explain it:

How to Thermal Cycle Knife Steel - Knife Steel Nerds

Experiments and recommendations on how to process steel after forging. Hardness, toughness, microstructure. Some controversial conclusions!

knifesteelnerds.com

 

[DevinT]

In our testing we found that the best balance of hardness and toughness comes from:
Proper forging temperatures
Normalizing
Grain refining
Annealing
Optimal austenitizing temperature and soak time
Correct quenching oil

You can cut out lots of steps but you will not have the best heat treatment.

Hoss

 

[R.C.Reichert]

In our testing we found that the best balance of hardness and toughness comes from:
Proper forging temperatures
Normalizing
Grain refining
Annealing
Optimal austenitizing temperature and soak time
Correct quenching oil

You can cut out lots of steps but you will not have the best heat treatment.

Hoss

According to the link that Stacy shared, if I am working with a forge, just doing a single normalizing cycle after forging sets me up the best prior to hardening. Or was I reading it wrong? My concern is that trying to do too many things in a forge is going to screw something up so I prefer to keep things simple if possible. Of course if I was working with a furnace, that would be different . I am using Houghto Quench K.

It's at the very end of the article where it says... How to "thermal cycle" low alloy steels in a forge.

 

[DevinT]

According to the link that Stacy shared, if I am working with a forge, just doing a single normalizing cycle after forging sets me up the best prior to hardening. Or was I reading it wrong? My concern is that trying to do too many things in a forge is going to screw something up so I prefer to keep things simple if possible. Of course if I was working with a furnace, that would be different . I am using Houghto Quench K.

It's at the very end of the article where it says... How to "thermal cycle" low alloy steels in a forge.

Larrin at knife steel nerds is my oldest son. I am very familiar with the article, video and testing.

If your prior condition before austenitizing is pearlite from normalizing , that lowers the austenitizing temperature, which is right at non-magnetic and no hotter.

You will need to do some grain refining at some point or the structure will have very low toughness.

I’m not familiar with that quench oil, 1084 requires a fast quench oil.

Keep in mind that every test sample that Larrin has tested from forge heat treated coupons has tested so low that he almost never includes them in the data. He showed that it can be done but the tendency is for smiths to overheat things.

Austenitizing temperature is the most important thing in heat treating and can not be controlled in a forge.

Kevin Cashen put out a video on 1084 which would be very helpful to you if you could get a copy.

80crv2 would be a better steel choice if using a forge.

Hoss

 

[R.C.Reichert]

Larrin at knife steel nerds is my oldest son. I am very familiar with the article, video and testing.

If your prior condition before austenitizing is pearlite from normalizing , that lowers the austenitizing temperature, which is right at non-magnetic and no hotter.

You will need to do some grain refining at some point or the structure will have very low toughness.

I’m not familiar with that quench oil, 1084 requires a fast quench oil.

Keep in mind that every test sample that Larrin has tested from forge heat treated coupons has tested so low that he almost never includes them in the data. He showed that it can be done but the tendency is for smiths to overheat things.

Austenitizing temperature is the most important thing in heat treating and can not be controlled in a forge.

Kevin Cashen put out a video on 1084 which would be very helpful to you if you could get a copy.

80crv2 would be a better steel choice if using a forge.

Hoss

Thanks for the information. I've only forged maybe two or three blades since I've been doing this, so I am quite new to forging and any information is helpful. Houghto Quench K is a 7-9 second oil.