Is any material looking remotely like ivory doomed?

Patrice Lemée

Patrice Lemée

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Aug 13, 2002
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I am not literate enough or good enough with English to debate the whole thing so please try and keep it about this question.

From a maker's point of view, I haven't used ivory of any kind yet and looks like I will not get to as things are going. That's nothing I can't live with. Plenty of other materials available out there. I only have one question:

Will this prevent us from using other similar “looking” materials like cow bone or taga nut (vegetable ivory), for example? Will anything looking remotely like ivory be stigmatize because of this?
 
I wonder if you will have to "prove" it's not ivory, i.e., a bill of sale or other documents, for it to not fall into the ivory category.
 
no one has a crystal ball, but I don't think your particular concern will be realized. Certainly not from a legal perspective, however, I think you're talking more about buyer's habits and social norms. Am I correct?
 
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Patrice Lemée;14364338 said:
Yes, Lorien, that is my main concern.
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I just struggled with the same question while pondering an order for handle materials. And, because of my uncertainty I opted to just go with wood and stag. I've seen some really nice looking product that look like ivory or mother of pearl and it looked good to me but I wasn't sure how it would be received as I don't see these materials being used.

Sometimes things that look nice, stand alone, can look gauty or tacky when applied in certain circumstances. Maybe it looks good but because people in the industry know it's synthetic it won't be well received based on "quality." IDK.... I'm hoping to see some good responses on this one.
 
I believe that questions and hesitation will only arise if Ivory is used. There is a justified concern that the use of ivory and indeed any 'wild animal' product will further the potential demise of wildlife populations, many of which are already threatened and/or endangered...whale, shark, exotic bird feathers, tiger skin, rhino horn, bear (gall-bladder), snake skin, butterfly wing etc. etc.

There are alternatives, both man-made/fabricated and natural, i.e., Mastadon/Mammoth, bone obtained through the food-chain.
 
Guys, now is the time to get rid of all your fossil ivory.

Just send it to Don Hanson or Cliff Parker.

We buy fossil ivory . com :cool:
 
I personally don't use Ivory or own any, and the vast majority of my clients find Ivory disgusting!

This is the trend for most folks here in the USA. So I have avoided any Ivory substitutes for years now because of that. In almost 20 years of making I can't remember one of my customers asking if I could use modern Ivory or something that looks like it for their knife handle.

The other problem I had when I did used some Ivory Paper Micarta for handles years ago, was finishing it. The dark sanding wet & dry papers would leave dark grit in it and I had to search for garnet based sand paper in fine grits to finish it with a clean grit.

The few times I used mastodon ivory. I picked very colored pieces so there was no confusion that it might be a modern Ivory.

So unless you want to get into the mega rich big game hunter market? I wouldn't bother with modern Ivory.

I had something really funny happen at a show that I had a table at.

There was a man at a table across from me selling Ancient Mastodon Ivory. A woman can up and started with You shouldn't be sell that. Elephants are killed for it Blah Blah. the Gentleman and that table tried three times to explain that everything on his table was 20 30.000 years old and was fossilized. The lady keep coming back with we need to save elephants and how can you sell this stuff until the man finally said.

Lady! It if from a road kill! She looked at hime and said, OK! And then walked off. LOL, Og the caveman ran it over in his flintstone mobile.

So, yes, the buyer's habits have changed and most want nothing to do with modern Ivory.
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
I personally don't use Ivory or own any, and the vast majority of my clients find Ivory disgusting!

This is the trend for most folks here in the USA. So I have avoided any Ivory substitutes for years now because of that. In almost 20 years of making I can't remember one of my customers asking if I could use modern Ivory or something that looks like it for their knife handle.

The other problem I had when I did used some Ivory Paper Micarta for handles years ago, was finishing it. The dark sanding wet & dry papers would leave dark grit in it and I had to search for garnet based sand paper in fine grits to finish it with a clean grit.

The few times I used mastodon ivory. I picked very colored pieces so there was no confusion that it might be a modern Ivory.

So unless you want to get into the mega rich big game hunter market? I wouldn't bother with modern Ivory.

I had something really funny happen at a show that I had a table at.

There was a man at a table across from me selling Ancient Mastodon Ivory. A woman can up and started with You shouldn't be sell that. Elephants are killed for it Blah Blah. the Gentleman and that table tried three times to explain that everything on his table was 20 30.000 years old and was fossilized. The lady keep coming back with we need to save elephants and how can you sell this stuff until the man finally said.

Lady! It if from a road kill! She looked at hime and said, OK! And then walked off. LOL, Og the caveman ran it over in his flintstone mobile.

So, yes, the buyer's habits have changed and most want nothing to do with modern Ivory.
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That may be your experience in your particular market, Lawrence, but I still think ivory is in high demand on the higher end knives. Or, would be if it were legal:)
 
Patrice,

I wouldn't be overly concerned about the issue. Can you imagine what would happen to the U.S. economy if it became illegal to butcher cattle. I'm sure that even our illustrious president (God love him) enjoys a good beef steak from time to time.

I will continue to use only natural materials in my handles and if that offends anyone then too bad.

Gary
 
Rhinoknives1 said:
I personally don't use Ivory or own any, and the vast majority of my clients find Ivory disgusting!

This is the trend for most folks here in the USA. So I have avoided any Ivory substitutes for years now because of that. In almost 20 years of making I can't remember one of my customers asking if I could use modern Ivory or something that looks like it for their knife handle.

The other problem I had when I did used some Ivory Paper Micarta for handles years ago, was finishing it. The dark sanding wet & dry papers would leave dark grit in it and I had to search for garnet based sand paper in fine grits to finish it with a clean grit.

The few times I used mastodon ivory. I picked very colored pieces so there was no confusion that it might be a modern Ivory.

So unless you want to get into the mega rich big game hunter market? I wouldn't bother with modern Ivory.

I had something really funny happen at a show that I had a table at.

There was a man at a table across from me selling Ancient Mastodon Ivory. A woman can up and started with You shouldn't be sell that. Elephants are killed for it Blah Blah. the Gentleman and that table tried three times to explain that everything on his table was 20 30.000 years old and was fossilized. The lady keep coming back with we need to save elephants and how can you sell this stuff until the man finally said.

Lady! It if from a road kill! She looked at hime and said, OK! And then walked off. LOL, Og the caveman ran it over in his flintstone mobile.

So, yes, the buyer's habits have changed and most want nothing to do with modern Ivory.
Click to expand...

Laurence, I am sorry buddy, but your last statement is really quite funny. Just go to any knife show, ivory is on a pretty large percentage of the knives there. It could be that you meant to say "elephant ivory" where you said ivory, and to me that's the problem with all these ivory bans, everyone wants to save elephants, but in attempting to do so they lump all types of ivory together.
 
I'm currently working on some knives for ECCKS in NJ, this will be my first US show (i'm from europe).

I read about the Ivory ban and know Ivory is out of the question, but can I bring knives made in mammoth molar (mammoth thoot) or mammoth bone?
This would be colored pieces that look nothing like ivory...
 
Mark Knapp said:
Laurence, I am sorry buddy, but your last statement is really quite funny. Just go to any knife show, ivory is on a pretty large percentage of the knives there. It could be that you meant to say "elephant ivory" where you said ivory, and to me that's the problem with all these ivory bans, everyone wants to save elephants, but in attempting to do so they lump all types of ivory together.
Click to expand...

Just like that woman did in his own story.... Irony?
 
Nylunds knives said:
I'm currently working on some knives for ECCKS in NJ, this will be my first US show (i'm from europe).

I read about the Ivory ban and know Ivory is out of the question, but can I bring knives made in mammoth molar (mammoth thoot) or mammoth bone?
This would be colored pieces that look nothing like ivory...
Click to expand...

Yes you can
 
Mark Knapp said:
Laurence, I am sorry buddy, but your last statement is really quite funny. Just go to any knife show, ivory is on a pretty large percentage of the knives there. It could be that you meant to say "elephant ivory" where you said ivory, and to me that's the problem with all these ivory bans, everyone wants to save elephants, but in attempting to do so they lump all types of ivory together.
Click to expand...

Mark,
YES, I did mean Modern African Elephant Ivory. I have no problem with any Ancient Ivories nor do the vast majority of my customers after I explain the difference on a desk piece or collectable. My market is mostly Culinary and most of these people don't want any animal products on a knife used for cooking.

As I told Patrice, So unless you want to get into the mega rich big game hunter market? I wouldn't bother with modern Ivory.

Also I stated Modern Ivory, as in recently harvested. One thing Mark that would help is a set of terms for the different Ivories. So everybody can be on one page when they talk about everything from Molars to tusks Ancient to Modern.

When I say Ancient, I mean fossilized Mastodon, Mammoth, Walrus etc. When I say Modern, I mean African harvested in the last 50-100 years or so.
 
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But mammoths need the MOST protection of all of our furry friends. They haven't been able to walk around in the open for at least 10,000 years because of the threat of evil humans and they are one DUMB critter. When you do find one, they just lay in a big hole in the tundra trying to play possum. How can an animal that big think that they can hide from human hunters in that manner? Sheesh!!!!!
 
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