Is BM full of BS?

K

Knifeclerk

Joined
Jul 16, 2004
Messages
1,083
You're all angry, I can feel it. But I have a, what I feel to be, legitimate concern about Benchmade's facts. I was browsing on their site, and noticed something very peculiar about their steels. They all have the same rockwell hardness. The only exception is their listing for M2 (60-62), and D2 (59-61). Everything else, from AUS8 to Hakkapelitta Damasteel is listed as 58-60. Even their S30 V.
Is this correct? I thought that 440C only reached 60RC with a <0 quench. If these claims are accurate, then why should one bother with their 154CM if their AUS8 or 440C is just as good?
Of course, I'm probably as son of a bitch for bringing this up.
-KC
 
You're oversimplifying the situation here. There's more to the steel a blade is made of than it's hardness rating. 154CM at 58-60 RC is tougher than AUS-8 at the same hardness. Likewise with 154CM and S30V. Two steels can perform quite differently even if their Rockwell ratings are the same.
 
Rockwell hardness is not a good way to judge how "good" a steel is. Certain steels have better attributes then others such as toughness, edge holding, wear resistance, and stain/rust resistance. :)
 
Spyderco quit posting the Rc hardness on their knives. I think most other companies should just follow their lead and do the same. More than half are not accurate anyway.

I read somewhere here or maybe on the Spyderco forum that when they tested competitors knives, even same model knives the results were quite different on each blade they tested.

Personally I've been able to tell differences in hardness just from sharpening the blades. I have also experimented with some of my hardness testing files and seen stark differences there as well.

I wish I had a Rc tester so I could do some testing of my own just to satisfy my own curiousity.
 
Yeah, like every one has said RC ratings don't tell you the hole story. Also, most everyone and every Co. that is trying to sell you something is mainly full of bs.
 
Can you provide a link where AUS-8A has the same hardness as ATS-34? It is usually softer, most claim 56/58 or 57/59.

-Cliff
 
Knifeclerk said:
If these claims are accurate, then why should one bother with their 154CM if their AUS8 or 440C is just as good?
Click to expand...

Hi Knifeclerk,

have You already seen something like that for example? ;)



Thanks to ImageShack for Free Image Hosting

Who claims, that all those steels are "just as good"?
Hardness is only hardness, and nothing more. There are many other properties that determine the "goodness" of a steel, as it already was said.
 
I am aware that there are many other factors that go into making any steel perform well for an intended use. Still, when I am selling a potential EDC to a customer, The hardness IS the issue. I try my best not to oversimlpify it, but it's hard. The hardness is printed in black&white, and is easy to compare in various materials. Frankly, most of my customers have trouble understanding that a knife can cost over $40. As you can imagine, there is only so much I can explain at the counter. That is why I am so concerned about this hardness issue.
Still, I do wonder if Benchmade is on the level about their numbers. It honestly seems strange to me that they would harden all their stainless steels to the same range.
 
Hardness is the issue for your customers? I really doubt that. Joe Smith comes in looking for a good knife and asks, "Hey I need a good knife for every day uses, what do you have that has a really high Rockwell hardness" "This one seems nice, what's it's RC level?" :rolleyes:
 
Yeah, most people don't know what Rc means, anyway. I used to work in a knife store, never heard hardness, and rarely steel type mentioned by a customer.
Regardless, someone could make a mistake. It's not unusual to see little errors on manufacturer's sites, or on dealer sites that have old info that the manufacturer has since corrected. I imagine the people doing the web page have nothing to do with the knives, and don't know any better.
How do you like that Instigator? Is the chisel grind for a lefty like an Emerson?
 
...with BM and accordingly their knives are probably RC'd at the lower #(nothing wrong with that though) but until they switch over to "420Jsub-zero quenched super-Steel"(ala many Cold Steel And CRKT offerings)they're still OK by me! :eek:
 
It rather reminds me of the audio power ratings wars of the 1970's. One company started making wattage claims and the others had to follow suit to be competitive.

I don't think AUS-8 can be hardened to 60 - even with a raw quench with no tempering. I like S30V a little softer than 60. It seems to behave better and performs about the same. VG-10, on the other hand, works like a charm at RC 60. Maybe the answer is to rate them all at RC 55-65, since most would fit into that range. One of the problems is that the average consumer has no way to verify the claims. It was the same with audio consumers 30 years ago.
 
Knife Outlet said:
Maybe the answer is to rate them all at RC 55-65, since most would fit into that range.
Click to expand...

This would imply that the knife could be expected to be in that range, ie. you could get one at 55 or one at 65, which would be misleading. I am going to suggest a fairly radical idea.

How about if the manufacturers actually tested the steels periodically for QC reasons and actually cited this information to the consumer in an effort to provide them with meaningful information.

Some people will do that, some won't. I have nver found it difficult to obtain hardness information from Spyderco, Swamp Rat, Busse, Phil Wilson, R.J. Martin, Ray Kirk, Kevin Cashen, etc. .

-Cliff
 
What about asking BM directly? Not their forum. The forum is for the lucky customers it is not made to interact between BM and customer even though some may wish it would be so.

I have asked them how they harden D2 and 154CM and have received answers in both cases. I have no doubt, that the claims are right and can be trusted. They can be trusted more than any claim of HRC 60. Just because there is a possible spread of hardness. You can´t treat them all equal if there are thousand blades.

What i don´t understand is the rush about subzero. Why shouldn´t they quench it sub zero? Because other manufacturers do make a wave about this?

Even the last 440A must be quenched below 0°C. There is nothing amazing about this exept you want it to be amazing. But than buy a Herbertz.

The only thing Benchmade is doing is following the insturctions. There is no mystery or anything about it following the instructions. Some blades are bad some are geat.

If you don´t believe in the hardness claims, search a bladesmith or something in that area and ask for a hardness test. It is done in a minute and most ppl. are happy to do something different.

Give us response if the hardness claims are right or wrong and ask BM directlxy and tell us, what they were saying.

This is better than humbling around here.
 
Hi Cliff Stamp,

Blop said:
What about asking BM directly? Not their forum. The forum is for the lucky customers it is not made to interact between BM and customer even though some may wish it would be so.
Click to expand...

I'm with Blop at this point. I asked them some things via email or PM and my questions were fast answered.

It works not always in the forum - and You know it already ;)
 
Blop said:
What about asking BM directly? Not their forum.
Click to expand...

If you (Benchmade) are not willing to make a public statement on an issue of performance then I am not overly interested from a consumer point of view.

Emails are problematic unless permission is given to repeat the contents in which case why not just address the issue publically in the first place.

-Cliff
 
Cliff Stamp said:
If you (Benchmade) are not willing to make a public statement on an issue of performance then I am not overly interested from a consumer point of view.

-Cliff
Click to expand...

... :rolleyes:
 
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