Is Case CV really 1095 CroVan?

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KennyB

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So I was wondering about 1095 CroVan was because I thought, "Hmm, Cro, Van, Chromium Vanadium?" and it turns out that's the case. In my Googl'ing though I saw some people make the statement that Case's CV steel they use in their blades was 1095 CroVan.

I always thought they used some kind of proprietary steel. Not that it makes a big difference, I've just been referring to it as if it was something special when it might serve me better to refer to it as 1095CV.
 
KennyB said:
So I was wondering about 1095 CroVan was because I thought, "Hmm, Cro, Van, Chromium Vanadium?" and it turns out that's the case. In my Googl'ing though I saw some people make the statement that Case's CV steel they use in their blades was 1095 CroVan.

I always thought they used some kind of proprietary steel. Not that it makes a big difference, I've just been referring to it as if it was something special when it might serve me better to refer to it as 1095CV.
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No, Case CV is not 1095 Cro Van. Case CV is 1085 with a tad of chromium and a tad of Vanadium.

1095 Cro Van is most similar to Carbon V that Camillus used on the Cold Steel knives they made. When Camillus used that alloy for their own blades they called it 0170-6C. The alloy is 1095 with a tad of Chromium and a bit of Vanadium.
 
Frank, would you happen to know exact composition of the Case CV steel? It'd ne nice ot have it in the steel chart.
 
KennyB said:
So I was wondering about 1095 CroVan was because I thought, "Hmm, Cro, Van, Chromium Vanadium?" and it turns out that's the case. In my Googl'ing though I saw some people make the statement that Case's CV steel they use in their blades was 1095 CroVan.

I always thought they used some kind of proprietary steel. Not that it makes a big difference, I've just been referring to it as if it was something special when it might serve me better to refer to it as 1095CV.
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This from Mike Stewart, owner of Bark River Knives. Keep in mind that this was originally written before Camillus went out of business.

CV--Chorme Vanadium Steel and Carbon V are all the very same steel.

This is not a mystery steel. It is not a new steel. It had been made by the hundreds of tons For many many years and used by ALL the major Knife Companies for Decades.

It is 0170-6 cutlery Steel...It was developed in the 1950's by sharon Steel specifically for Knives.

It is an enhanced 1095. They added Nickel--Chromium and a trace of Vanadium. it was a patented steel of Sharon.

Everybody used it. it was called by cute names by some companies --Chrome-Vanadium by others.

This was the original Steel chosen by both Lynn Thomson for his Trailmaster and me for the Old Mamba. We all used it until 1988 when sharon Steel went Bankrupt. None of us could get it after this and no other mill would duplicate it because the patent was still in effect.

We all switched to other steels.

A couple of years ago Case and Camillus Found a mill that would duplicate the Chemistry of the Sharon steel and they ordered a heat lot--+/_ 100,000 lbs.

Case had thier portion of the heat lot rolled to use in pocket knife sizes and Camillius had thier portion rolled to use for Lynn on his U.S. made knives and the Becker line.

This was a common steel and will out perform regular 1095. I have used it in a lot of the early Blackjacks. I still have some of this steel and we made our goloks and Northwind Swords from it.

I have no idea why this question keeps comming up. All of this is common knowledge in the industry among insiders.

I suspect that nobody will be using it except for Case, Cammilius, Becker, Westerm and Cold Steel.

As I'm sure you know that Case makes thier knives and Camillius makes all of the other brands that I just mentioned.

I doubt that you will have any better luck relaying this info either. It dosen't seem that folks want the truth.

It's more fun for folks to speculate...................


STR
 
Gator97 said:
Frank, would you happen to know exact composition of the Case CV steel? It'd ne nice ot have it in the steel chart.
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According to the cert package I received from another member, Crucible sent a 2008 cert package to Case stating this as the composition:
C___0.86
Mn__0.68
P___0.07
S___0.012
Si___0.24
Cr__0.65
V___0.22

That would make it essentially 1085 with minor additions of Cr and Vanadium.

1) There is nothing that states that this is "CV" alloy.
2) Aside from blades, I can think of no other usage for such an alloy.
3) It ain't stainless, so this is not Tru-Sharp.
 
STR said:
CV--Chorme Vanadium Steel and Carbon V are all the very same steel.






I have no idea why this question keeps comming up. All of this is common knowledge in the industry among insiders.






STR
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info...it may be common knowledge but I didn't have it til now.

I'm not much of a collector, but I have a few Case knives and I prefer to have CV over the SS ones.......just me.
 
knarfeng said:
According to the cert package I received from another member, Crucible sent a 2008 cert package to Case stating this as the composition:
C___0.86
Mn__0.68
P___0.07
S___0.012
Si___0.24
Cr__0.65
V___0.22

That would make it essentially 1085 with minor additions of Cr and Vanadium.

1) There is nothing that states that this is "CV" alloy.
2) Aside from blades, I can think of no other usage for such an alloy.
3) It ain't stainless, so this is not Tru-Sharp.
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Nice, great info man. I had looked for the Case CV composition a few times before.

Also, this is what I read on another forum which lead me to believe it was 1095CV, but it is in regards to a question a member was asking about KaBar's 1095 CroVan. Did I misunderstand the post, or maybe their production has just changed?

I’ll give you the 50cent tour of our steel and hope that it answers your question.

Yes, our steel is indeed, the now defunct, Sharon Steel Co. 170-06.

Long ago (way before Mike Stewart) the knife industry did in fact call Sharon 170-06 : Cro-Van or 1095 Cro-Van or 1095CV. Not just as a marketing name but actually on POs and specs and shop documents.

Notice that Case also calls their carbon steel: Cro-Van. A look through old turn-of-the century advertising literature and catalogs will confirm this for you. Also remember that Case, KA-BAR, Alcas (Cutco) were all related (Not to mention Platts (Western), Cattaraugus, Robeson, Kinfolks ,Champlin, Crandal, et al.) All located in South Western NY/North Western PA. So there was a lot of cross- over of personnel and knowledge between the companies. We are still on very friendly terms with Case even though the blood connection no longer exists. Also Sharon Steel was in Sharon, PA. A look on the map will show you why they supplied the turn-of-the-century knife industry.

If you look at the Chemical composition of 170-06, it is basically AISI 1095 with the addition of small amounts of Chrome, Vanadium, and smaller amounts of Nickel and Moly so the term 1095 Cro-Van is not off base.

For many years we called Cro-Van just 1095 in our advertising literature, but went back to calling it 1095 Cro-Van as it is a better steel than just straight 1095,

and we felt there were advantages to making the distinction. We did that in 2005. We make no attempt to hide the fact that it is 170-06. Nor do we make extravagant claims for the steel.

1095 Cro-Van is just the name we have always used.

I hope this answers your question. If you have further, feel free to e-mail me directly at pault@ka-bar.com



Best Regards,


Paul Tsujimoto

Sr. Engineer

Product Development & Quality

Ka-Bar Knives
Click to expand...
 
I have two certs for steel bought by Case.
One, from 1957, is for what I would call "1095-CV".
The other, from 2008, is for what I would call "1085-CV".

The CV blades I have tested, which are of current vintage, perform as I would expect "1085-CV" to perform.
 
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knarfeng said:
I have two certs for steel bought by Case.
One, from 1957, is for what I would call "1095-CV".
The other, from 2008, is for what I would call "1085-CV".

The CV blades I have tested, which are of current vintage, perform as I would expect "1085-CV" to perform.
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Ahh, okay, makes sense. I remember when I bought my yellow CV trapper I noticed some manufacturing differences (flat bolsters) and learned they changed a whole bunch of production things on the 2008 Yellow Handle knives to save production costs. I guess that probably included a switch from 1095 to 1085.

Well, I guess that just gives me another reason to find an older yellow-handle trapper. I was already looking for one because of the round bolsters. I wonder how much difference there would really be between 1085CV and 1095CV though.
 
All,

Since I just got quoted, let me be more specific. I think that Knarfeng is correct. The current Case CV steel is not exactly the same mix as KA-BAR's 1095 CV. I do believe their carbon % is lower. (If you order enough steel you can get any chemistry you want. My old Sharon Steel Book lists a 0175-6 which may be the steel; or not)
All of the magic circle companies used 0170-06 when it first came out. While technically not 0170-06, Case's steel can still be called Cro-Van.
Hey, they can call it anything they want.
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
Sr Eng.
Prod Dev and Qual
KA-BAR Knives
 
In the end, how much noticeable difference is there between 1095 Cro-Van and 1085 CV in a Case slipjoint? How much better is a 1095 CV edge over a 1085 CV edge? Is the 1085 a tad bit tougher? Is it easier to get a consistent heat treat with .85 carbon? I can't imagine there is a lot of difference in the per ton price.

Just curious. I'm sure Case has a rationale explanation that shows up on the bottom line.
 
ras said:
In the end, how much noticeable difference is there between 1095 Cro-Van and 1085 CV in a Case slipjoint? How much better is a 1095 CV edge over a 1085 CV edge? Is the 1085 a tad bit tougher? Is it easier to get a consistent heat treat with .85 carbon? I can't imagine there is a lot of difference in the per ton price.

Just curious. I'm sure Case has a rationale explanation that shows up on the bottom line.
Click to expand...

Actually they are so close I find it hard to believe any real noticed differences would be all that noticed as far as the steel goes if both were the same grind, the same heat treat and hardness etc etc. What I think it really boils down to is that the Case knives are just a bit softer than the other brands mentioned and this would be enough to cause some noticed difference in performance more so than the difference in the elemental mix of the alloy between these two steels. Arguably some 1095 with carbon content on the low end of the scale would compare well with 1085 with carbon on the high end for that steel so I can't imagine there would be a lot of diff really. What I do see though is very much in line with what Frank has noticed and that is that my Case CV knives do not seem to be as good as my Marbles MSA 01 Tear Drop Buffalo in 1095 or my GEC 72 Lockback in 1095 or my Bark River Micro knives in the 0170-06 steel. For that matter if I had to pick a better performer than the MSA Marbles from 01-02-03 of these I'd be hard pressed to find one. These are excellent knives and if just everyday run of the mill 1095 is what they are there is something missing from this picture. These appear to me to outperform all the above and even my Old Timer 8OT which has been an old stand by for years.

Anyway, thats my opinion of course but lets not forget as I said to Frank earlier. One of the advantages of using names such as "TRU-Sharp or "Surgical Stainless" or "CV", or Carbon V is that you can actually switch steel and still label it just the same because it leaves the door open to either experiment or change things completely from heat treat, to actual steel without drawing attention to it. Well, with the exception of certain knife nuts that would pick up on it in performance I mean. Even then one is hard pressed to prove the results because most end line users wouldn't have a clue that anything changed at all since most end line users seem to carry a knife with just the vague semblance of an edge that is many times slightly better than a butter knife in my kitchen. Its only the true knife nuts and sportsman that actually carry and appreciate a sharper knife so edge keeping to the majority seems to be lost soon after the knife is bought. After that if its good enough to pry with they think its a good knife. So it seems anyway.

STR
 
Like a modded 1080, 1084, or 1090. Manganese is too high/low to fit with 1085 or 1086, but only by a hair. Too much phosphorus for any of them.
 
STR,

There really isn't too much differnece between 1085CV and 1095CV. In fact the lower Carbon % may aid in manufacturing processes. 1085CV probably gives Case some more toughness. The lower carbon will help with reducing the sometimes large ferric carbides that will chunk out the cutting edge. The Chromium and Vandaium help with grain refinement and will produce some very hard carbides that help with abrasion resistance.
I think people put too much emphasis on steel types. Every one wants the latest whiz bang high tech steel. There are many trade offs, especially in steel.

ras, I'm thinking that you are correct. Matching the steel to manufacturing processes and particular knives is important. Efficient processes is what makes for decent profit margin.
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
Sr Eng
Prod Dev and Qual
KA-BAR Knives
 
Toooj said:
STR,

There really isn't too much differnece between 1085CV and 1095CV. In fact the lower Carbon % may aid in manufacturing processes. 1085CV probably gives Case some more toughness. The lower carbon will help with reducing the sometimes large ferric carbides that will chunk out the cutting edge. The Chromium and Vandaium help with grain refinement and will produce some very hard carbides that help with abrasion resistance.
I think people put too much emphasis on steel types. Every one wants the latest whiz bang high tech steel. There are many trade offs, especially in steel.

ras, I'm thinking that you are correct. Matching the steel to manufacturing processes and particular knives is important. Efficient processes is what makes for decent profit margin.
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
Sr Eng
Prod Dev and Qual
KA-BAR Knives
Click to expand...

Yep thats kind of my thoughts too Paul. With all the talk of the latest and greatest steels I find threads like this refreshing because even with all our so called great progress we still find 'grandma's old butcher knife steel' to be every bit as good as anything currently offered when all things are considered. You touched on some of that in the way it all boils down to money in the end and specifically profits, but even more than this consistent and reliable performance over time has to mean something too because companies don't need troublesome steels that come back to haunt them with issues after the've sold to end line users. How many times have we seen all these great new steels come out only to read about all the heat treat problems, or fracturing edges, rolling edges and on and on. 1095 and 1085 have been very consistent for a number of manufacturers. Still people always look for the bigger better deal. I guess its human nature. ;)

STR
 
ras said:
In the end, how much noticeable difference is there between 1095 Cro-Van and 1085 CV in a Case slipjoint? How much better is a 1095 CV edge over a 1085 CV edge? Is the 1085 a tad bit tougher? Is it easier to get a consistent heat treat with .85 carbon? I can't imagine there is a lot of difference in the per ton price.

Just curious. I'm sure Case has a rationale explanation that shows up on the bottom line.
Click to expand...

I have done side-by-side manila rope edge retention testing of traditional pocket knife blades.
Carbon V (aka Camillus 0170-6C aka "1095 CV")
1095 (both Schrade Old Timer and GEC)
Case CV.

There is a noticeable difference in performance between any of the true 1095 type alloys and that of Case CV.

That being said, I like Case CV. But it does not hold an edge as well as 1095 or 1095CV. The difference is noticeable to me in every day use, as well.
 
Is that testing with the same knife pattern and grind? Edge geometry and heat treatment have a lot to say about how any particular knife/steel will perform a given test.

What is a typical Rc of a Case CV slipjoint . . 56/57? Is that a deliberate Case manufacturing decision or a limitation of Case CV steel?

Curious . .
 
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