Is D2 steel as brittle as people think or say it is?

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Adaam

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I'm looking at some knives made from D2 (primarily KA-BAR, and no this thread is not about what KA-BAR I should get, it's about the performance of the steel), and from what I've read, it's really brittle. That's from what I've read on forums. Now, when I read reviews of knives made from D2, I hear that some chip, but then the KA-BARs that are made from D2 have very little issues with chipping (lets just say I haven't been able to find one with a chipping issue when used properly anywhere on the internet, as in a chip on the blade. I have found cases where the tip has broken off, but thats the worst I've been able to find). This makes me wonder, is D2 a steel that, when people who only read about the properties of the steel, they assume it's brittle? Or is it like Busse's INFI steel, which is good at everything but seems like it should be brittle? To rephrase my question simply, is D2 steel a steel that is brittle in theory, but in actual fact, it is quite tough and not as brittle as some people think? Or is it just KA-BAR's heat treatment? I know their heat treatment is good (so a 1095 blade from them is guaranteed to be good), but is it just the heat treatment that KA-BAR does that makes it less brittle than D2 from other companys? Because from my research, I've found that a range of D2 blades from a range of companys have chipping issues, but it seems that D2 KA-BARs just don't chip as easily, and people who actually own them and use them seem to be surprised by it's toughness. Could it just be KA-BAR has their D2 heat treatment perfect and other companys are to catch up? Even with poor heat treatment, is D2 really as brittle as some other steels, and as brittle as other people say? And is D2 just insanely brittle in theory, but in reality, its surprisingly tough to the people that have actually used it, not just read about it? And finally, in general, is D2 or 440a more brittle (in general)?
 
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Adaam said:
I'm looking at some knives made from D2 (primarily KA-BAR, and no this thread is not about what KA-BAR I should get, it's about the performance of the steel), and from what I've read, it's really brittle.
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While brittleness may be a common problem with D2, this is very dependent I think on the design and even more so the heat treatment of the blade. I own a Kershaw Outcast, which is a big knife with a D2 steel blade perfectly desinged for chopping with. Despite a fair amound of chopping and hacking with this knife, I have never noticed any problem with chipping of the edge. :thumbup:

Unfortunatly, I have never owned or used one of Ka-Bar's D2 knives, so I can't comment on this specifically. I can just offer the opinion that using D2 does not automatically make a knife brittle.
 
I've only had one knife in D2 steel, a big chopper from kershaw. It snapped off at the handle on my third swing. The handle was skeletized where it broke though so it could be a design issue. The heat treat should make a difference. I haven't gotten around to contacting kershaw for a replacement it may have been an isolated case.
 
I don't have any of Ka-Bar's D2 (yet), so I can't speak directly to performance there. But D2 done well is a great steel.
Bob Dozier's D2 is legendary. I've tried it in a passaround, liked it, and now have a Dozier on order.
I have a Bussekin (Swamp Rat) blade in D2 that is tough as nails. As usual, I'm sure the heat treatment has a lot to do with performance.

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The only experience I have with D2 is with Benchmade.

I have a Benchmade Nitrous Stryker tanto in D2 with partially serrated blade that is tough as hell and hasn't chipped, split, or shown much of any signs of use even though I have used it quite a bit. They must have nailed the heat treat on the one I have.

I also have a Benchmade Hardtail (full size) folder in D2 that is chippy as hell. Once I sharpened it for the first time it went to a working edge that is chippy and I cannot restore it back to a smooth edge. Still tough, holds that working edge well, and the chips are micro. I'm too lazy to send it back to BM to have them check to see if it's normal or the HT was bad.

So...I agree with what others have said - it depends on the grind, steepness of the cutting angle and the heat treat.
 
i haven't found d2 to be overly brittle. of course i haven't tried to use any of my knives with it as prybars or hard choppers, etc.

it's a tool steel so it is hard and brittle but not, imho, overly so, in the right applications for it's use. i can't comment of ka-bar's d2 ht, as i just do not know and have no experience with any of their knives in d2. plenty in 1095 crovan, but not d2. i think ht is where it matters the most with d2. allot like with cpm-s30v. done right works well, not done right chipping happens easily. all things in the use of the knive relative of course. there is better steels for hard choppers and prybar type use, imho. not that it can't do those tasks at all, but i guess it falls into personal preferrence....

in my experience, 440a tends to roll easily regardless of ht. obviously some better than others, but what i mean regardless of ht, is that it tends to roll under hard use, not chip. it is much softer than d2. so you'll find 440a rolling more than chipping compared to d2.


mind you these are my opinions based on my own using of steels ands knives, and i am not a steel expert or cutlery master of any kind...but i do use my knives in real life tasks and bushcraft stuff in the swamps where i live. i have no collectables in a safe, can't afford them. mine were all bought to be used and i use them for the correct applications of course.
 
Hi Adaam,

I can't speak for all knife companies but I 'll give you some insite into KA-BAR's thinking on D2:
Each particular steel has strong and weak points. The ultimate engineering feat is to invent a material that is infinitely light but dense, hard but tough, brittle yet malleable, etc. That material, yet to be developed, is called unobtainium.
D2 is no different. It has some very strong characteristics; ie wear/abrasion resistence. However, the trade off is lack of toughness. When we design a blade with a particular steel, we look to maximize the strengths and minimize the weaknesses.
D2 has great wear resistence that makes it a great edge holding steel. Since it lacks toughness we temper the steel to a softer hardness than is recomended. Our blades are 59-60 HRc as opposed to many makers whose knives will test out at 60-61 HRc.
That slight drop in hardness still allows for great edge holding but adds some toughness. Proper heat treat protocols and monitoring really helps. In addition, the wear resistence that makes for great edge holding also makes it a bear to sharpen, so the softer hardness allows for easier sharpening.
Other things that helps cutting performance is blade and edge geometry and how they are used. Batoning with a full hollow ground blade is inviting trouble irreguardless of what steel is being used.
We, at KA-BAR, like D2 steel. It is hard to grind but it is very stable, easy and predicable to heat treat and process. It makes a great cutting blade.
Hope this helps.

Best Regards,

Paul Tsujimoto
Sr Eng
Prod Dev and Qual
KA-BAR Knives
 
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D2 is not brittle, it just isn't up there as far as impact toughness goes. Toughness is low compared to many other steels, but it is also in the ballpark of many stainless steels. My only issue with it is that the corrosion resistance, wear resistance, and impact toughness altogether are exceeded by other steels. But if 1095 is wear resistant enough for some, 440C is tough enough for others, and others still aren't concerned about L6 or O1 rusting, then there's plenty of room for D2.
 
Now that is what i like, hearing from the source. I have 4 Ka-Bars myself and am very happy with them. Excellent explaination.
 
I have a Benchmade Nitrous Stryker D2 combo blade. I have had chips in the serrated portion. I also had a small chip in the plane section. The small chip in the plane section happened after I sharpened it to 17 degree angle with a 20 degree micro bevel on my wicked edge. It was a sweet edge but I chipped cutting a small piece of copper wire. I read a few posts that reported chips when the edge angle was too narrow. I sharpened it to a 22 degree angle with a 24 degree micro bevel and it has taken everything a folder should take since then.

It sounds like you really use you knives. If I were you I would go with something that is proven to be tougher. Get a Swamp Rat Knife Works Ratmandu. They are available right now. Sr101 will run circles around D2 and the prices are close. SRKW also has a lifetime warranty.
 
The problem with D2 is there are so many better overall choices out there these days that it's just not very high on my list when I think about what steel I want.

Nothing wrong with it in general though, start comparing it to some other steels and it just falls short.

Definitely not the miracle steel that some hype it to be.

When I can have a steel that will hold an edge 2 or 3 times as long and be just as tough or tougher and stainless I can tell you what I would choose and I wouldn't have to think about it very long..
 
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The only D2 knife I have is a Dozier Buffalo River Hunter. I've mostly only used it once in a while, though I did do a lot of cutting on onion roots with it, which chipped my M390 blade a little and blunted it, though my Dozier knife still slices printer paper easily.
Ankerson said:
The problem with D2 is there are so many better overall choices out there these days that it's just not very high on my list when I think about what steel I want.

Nothing wrong with it in general though, start comparing it to some other steels and it just falls short.

Definitely not the miracle steel that some hype it to be.

When I can have a steel that will hold an edge 2 or 3 times as long and be just as tough or tougher and stainless I can tell you what I would choose and I wouldn't have to think about it very long..
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Have you tried Dozier's heat treat of that yet? It's probably not fair to compare custom HT knives, but that guy taught an old dog a new trick:thumbup:.
 
Noctis3880 said:
The only D2 knife I have is a Dozier Buffalo River Hunter. I've mostly only used it once in a while, though I did do a lot of cutting on onion roots with it, which chipped my M390 blade a little and blunted it, though my Dozier knife still slices printer paper easily.

Have you tried Dozier's heat treat of that yet? It's probably not fair to compare custom HT knives, but that guy taught an old dog a new trick:thumbup:.
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His knives perform due to edge and blade geometry and overall knife design, he has his twist on D2, but it's not a miracle at all.

I give him credit for excellent designs because that has more to do with the performance that just the D2 he uses. Over the years he has optimised the blade grinds and edge geometry for the steel he likes to use, that is D2 and the D2 he uses is all from 1 production run that he bought like 20 years ago.

D2 properly HTed to 60-61 is D2 just like any other D2 heat treated that is done properly if they take the time to fine tweak the process like he did.

No, we really can't compare custom knives and custom HT to production blades and be fair about it, the performance difference can be 500% or more from what I have seen over production blades.

I tested a custom N690 blade that out performed every knife in my rankings and by a large margin... Just as an example and why I don't compare Customs to production knives, I just can't....

Start comparing apples to apples and things will tighten up considerably performance wise and puts everything right back into proper perspective.

But yes compare a Dozier to (Enter Production knife here) and yes it could seem like a miracle knife and D2 could seem like a miracle steel.

Compare a Dozier to another Custom by a good maker and well, we just get the feeling that it performs as it should, no miracles, just a good custom knife that is well designed.
 
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BM's D2, like my 201, 710, and Bone Collectors, seemingly takes a good edge - eventually (Spydie Sharpmaker) - and, as a working edge, it lasts. Sure, I like S30V better... and M390 & N690... but lots of folks still use D2. It will rust. My new 710, several years ago on my birthday while we were at a condo on the beach at Gulf Shores, AL, grew some 'character' in just a few days. I never carried it on the beach - and opened it when we got down there - whittled on a third floor balconey. it was initially pristene. I have a mix of other D2 bladed knives that don't keep their edge as long as the BM's. None suffer from chipping - or rolled edges, although I have some PRC examples of 440C that have rolled, but that's another story. The 710 is still in pretty good shape, just a few dots still visible. I only carry Bucks made of 420HC on such trips to the beach now.

Stainz
 
I like D2. A lot. I have a few folders and two fixed blades, none ever chipped, they hold an edge, and they're not nearly as bad to sharpen as many claim (although it's no AUS8 :D)
I had a Kershaw JYD2 with a CPM-D2 edge and it was one of the best blades I ever had on a folder as far as sharpness and edge holding goes, man that thing would get silly sharp. But even the plain D2 on a BM710 or a Military is very good stuff.
Busse used to make blades out of D2 and swears by it (outstanding HT of course). That's good enough for me. :thumbup:
 
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Wow, that got alot more responses than I thought it would, quickly too. Thank you very much everyone, I now feel more confident buying a D2 knife. There are alot less people with chipping issues on D2 blades than I thought. There are still a few cases of chips that you have told me about, but then it is still quite a brittle steel when compared to others, so in a way you expect it to chip more. To an extent anyway. The design and how narrow the edge is appears to have an impact too. Some people are saying that one knife from a company in D2 is amazing, but another knife from that company, again in D2, chips alot, like Toyz. The second knife you mentioned could have just been a cheaper knife (I dont know), or it could have just been heat treated badly. The edge angle appears to be important too, if its too narrow, it'll chip, so you can't hold a ridiculously sharp edge. But then, jdigi101, you said you sharpened your D2 knife to 22 degrees, and it's fine now. I'm guessing it would still be pretty sharp at that angle. And Troooj, thank you very much for your very informative response. It was very useful. It seems alot less brittle than I thought it would be, and people who use it seem to think it's a pretty decent steel. And I watched that knife test video again, which I've seen and mentioned before, which has made me even more confident in the steel. The design and edge angle, like some of you said, will have a big impact on how the knife performs. And like what mdauben said, I guess just because D2 can be rittle doesn't mean all of it is, and thats it. It CAN be brittle. The heat treatement is also very important, from what you've said. So if someone can have a well designed, well heat treated knife that's used as a big chopper (like you mdauben), without any chips, and alot of people think it's a pretty good steel, then I'm confident, because KA-BAR seem to have their designs down pretty well (in terms of shape and width etc) and their HT seems awesome from what I've heard/ read. They're design, whilst no one has said anything about the design on this thread in terms of experience with using the design for practical use, seems very good IMO. I can't find anything negative about KA-BAR's design, so that leads me to believe and assume it's a solid design, and like Troooj said, they try to exploit the strengths and minimise the weaknesses in their design.
 
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I like D2 and the chipping is not significant (depends on the HT) but as ankerson said there are better more modern alternatives. Check out Elmax :)
 
Had an ENZO in D2. Not brittle. Sharp and strong. Cutting mostly rope, food, some leather, wooden sticks :-)
 
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